07-15-2003, 12:49 PM | #61 | |
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07-15-2003, 02:51 PM | #62 | |||
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07-15-2003, 03:37 PM | #63 | |
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Why do I feel it is an honour? Because I think that the Monarchy are so inexplicably a part of our heritage- they represent everything that is continual, unchanging in British life. Will all this modern hustle and bustle, we still have a monarch, just as we did, say, 600 years ago. Isn't that something special? I feel almost a sense of wonder and awe at the splendour of a coronation for example. Have you never heard a particularly stirring patriotic song and felt a prickling of pride that yes, this is my country. It's almost the same thing. I hope I have been enlightening. I know that sometimes the concept of a priveliged nobility and royalty can sometimes be hard for Americans to justify to themselves (correct me if I'm wrong). But...then again, I am an absurdly sentimental old hat.
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07-15-2003, 03:51 PM | #64 | |||
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07-15-2003, 05:29 PM | #65 |
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I'm a Brit (English, actually ) and I think it's great too that we have a monarch. I'm not that impressed by some of the queen's children but I do believe that the queen herself genuinely tries to fulfil the responsibilities of her role. Also I believe that her work and those of other members of the family, is very important in terms of ambassadorship and also maybe too in terms of generating trade.
I've met Prince Charles, btw, and ever since I've been a great fan of his ... |
07-15-2003, 05:45 PM | #66 |
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You met Prince Charles? Wow, that is impressive. I met the Queen once, when my father recieved his credentials as an Ambassador.
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07-15-2003, 06:12 PM | #67 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I for one like the British having a monarchy. I think it would be terrible if it went away. I however am glad that the US doesn't and that we broke away.
I don't like the "class system" of Britain - and it still exists to some extent - all though it is a lot better than it was. Quote:
As for Russia - that was a tragedy. You should read Nicholas and Alexandra. I also have The Last Tsar: The Life and Death of Nicholas II Quote:
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07-15-2003, 06:28 PM | #68 | ||
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I said not that I admire the methods that they used. Sheesh! I'm only saying that perhaps it was the only way to go. Monarchs dead = no future problems. Again, not that I approve of what happened. I'm just saying. Quote:
EDIT: ok, it's been pointed out to me by JD that I really shouldn't criticize England for their choice to keep a monarchy. So, I appologize to all the Brits if I offended anyone. Last edited by Ruinel : 07-15-2003 at 06:37 PM. |
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07-16-2003, 04:14 AM | #69 | |
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07-16-2003, 12:50 PM | #70 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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A few random comments:
from JD Quote:
From Ruinel Quote:
We tolerate it because she is the Queen of Canada, and our head of state- why do you tolerate paying for Air Force One? From Radagast Quote:
From JD Quote:
However, the American colonies were used as a dumping ground for British prisons. The Australian penal colony at Botany Bay was established for precisely that reason, as an alternative after the War of Independence. From Baby-K Quote:
Once they had been thoroughly beaten, burned out, and starved to death in concentration camps to teach them the benefits of Imperial rule, the self-determination process could begin to unfold. From Ruinel Quote:
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07-16-2003, 02:24 PM | #71 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - the only reason it is called Air Force One - is because the plane is handled by the Air Force. When the President flies on a Marine aircraft it is called Marine One, when he flies on a Navy aircraft it is known as Navy One, etc. This is because of an indident which happened in the 60's when there were two planes coming in for a landing with the same call numbers - one being the plane the president was traveling on. After that - any plane that the president rides on changes it's name to ????? One so there is no confustion that it is the presidents plane and he is on board. If the president isn't on board - then it just goes by it's call numbers. It used to be that each president got a new plane - this is not the case. Air Force One is no different than the White House. What do you expect - the president of the US to fly commercial? Wouldn't terrorists love that one. Quote:
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The Monarchy does a lot more for Britain than it does to hurt it. Britain would suffer tourism dollars without the monarchy. One of the reasons many Americans and many other people around the world go to Britain is to see Buckingham Palace - hoping the Queens flag will be flying indicating she is at the palace or going to Windsor Castle. As for what the Monarchy does for Canada, etc - it does nothing. Except obviously gets free trips around the world. Also - my complaint with what ruinel was saying - was that she had not studied the Romanov's and tragic deaths. Nor does she know British history. It's the same complaint I have when outsiders criticise America without them even studying our history or understanding our government. I did not however tell her to apologise or anything. i just pointed out to her that she was in no position to really JUDGE Britain on whether they have a monarchy or not - anymore than it is an outsiders busines of whether we have national health care, "the right to bear arms" or the death penalty. As for Canada - whether you have the monarchy is also your business, yet you are NOT entirely free of Britain. If you were you would NOT have the queen on your money - you would NOT be paying for her expenses when she visits. We don't pay for the Queens visits or any of the royal familys or foreign dignataries. You can not say that you are fully independent and then say the Queen is the Head of State or that she is YOUR Queen. Either you are fully seperated and independent with NO ties to Britain or you are not. If you want to be considered a fully independent country - then BECOME a fully independent country with NO ties to the British Crown. This goes for New Zealand, Australia and all the other countries tied to Britain.
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07-16-2003, 02:43 PM | #72 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - here is additional information on airforce one... Quote:
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Overall I think it is much better that the President of the United States of America has his OWN plane - just like he has his OWN cars, and doesn't get his security detail from "Security-R-Us". So to answer your question - YES I think that the expense of Air Force One is worth the protection of the head of our government (as well as what many refer to as the Leader of the Free World). Graymouser - do you REALLY think the US President should fly commercial? Also - when you made your statement comparing the Queen to Air Force One - did you know ANYTHING about Air Force One and it's function and role? By the way - Air Force One comes out of the military budget.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-16-2003 at 03:19 PM. |
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07-16-2003, 03:25 PM | #73 | |||
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(I think JD answered the Air Force One question - damn, JD, your posts are getting longer and longer.... sheesh! .) Quote:
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07-16-2003, 04:55 PM | #74 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I will say I would not like for the US to be like a country nor for me to even live in a country because of certain things they do- but those are the decisions of those countries and really doesn't concern me too much unless I actually live there. I like the fact that the US does NOT have a monarchy - but it is up to Sweden, Japan, Britain, etc - what they do. Hopefully they won't go the route of bringing them to a room in a basement, executing them in front of a fire squad and then pouring acid on them. Quote:
I seriously doubt if Britain decided to get rid of the Monarchy - that they would perform the same heinous acts as France and Russia. Quote:
I studied the last ruling family - Nicholas Romanov and the whole situation is tragic. In some respects hemophilia is what brought down the Russian monarchy. I'm not saying the monarchy of the czars was good BEFORE Nicholas - but I do think that Nicholas wanted to be an understanding ruler and be fair. What Russia ended up with after the death of the royal family was about 70 years of Communism and poverty. Far more poverty than was suffered under the royal family not to mention the wholesale slaughter under Stalin. If you don't want to read the book of Nicholas and Alexandra you can always get the movie. The book is obviously better though - but the movie does follow the book very closely.
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07-16-2003, 07:09 PM | #75 | |
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Last edited by Ruinel : 07-16-2003 at 07:47 PM. |
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07-17-2003, 03:00 AM | #76 | |
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OK, brief history of SA (for Ruinel, Ru - I'll do a bit more detail on the independence etc if you like at a later stage, just very busy right now)
1488 - Portuguese sailors are first to set foot upon SA soil 1652 - First formal settlement in SA (Jan van Riebeeck) when the Dutch East India Co decided to use the Cape of Good Hope as a provision station en route between the East & West. Ensuing decades French Huguenots, Dutch and German people settle in the Cape to form the basis of what is known as the Afrikaner nation today. 1779 - Establishment has reached up to the Great Fish River & first frontier wars are fought between the Dutch & Xhosa people. At the end of the 18th century the British gained control of the Cape (Cape to Cairo dream of British rule) & their rule was the start of a long & bitter strife between Afrikaners & English. 1836 - Beginning of the 'Groot Trek' (Great Trek) where Afrikaners decided to move North due to British rule & the abolition of slavery (the slaves were mostly Cape Malays who worked on the wine farms & Kompanjie estates) The Trek brought the Boers into conflict with African groups in the area (notably the Zulus under rule of Shaka who in his time had ensured that the Zulus rule most of the now KwaZulu Natal area, from the Drakensberg [midlands] to the coast). 1828 - Shaka is assasinated & replaced by his half brother Dingane. 1838 - Dec 16 Battle of Blood River where 464 Boers under Andries Pretorius defeated a Zulu army of more than 10 000 warriors (ultimate defeat of Dingane, however the Zulus remained a powerful force who defeated the British in the historic battle of Isandhlwana before finally being conquered in 1879) 1852 & 1854 - Independent Boer Republics of Transvaal (ZAR - Zuid Afrikaanse Republic) and Orange Free State are created - relations with British Government is strained. 1870 - Discovery of diamons in Kimberley (bit of trivia re a SA diamond in British Crown Jewels) Quote:
The discovery of the above lead to an influx of foreign (mostly British) settlers and migrant black workers from rural areas & countries like Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe & Zambia respectively to the South & North), Mozambique and Swaziland etc.
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07-17-2003, 03:12 AM | #77 | |
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Continued
*A side note - while the Free State & Transvaal had proclaimed themselves independent republics the Cape & Natal colonies were firmly under British rule & the Brits were making no secret of it that they would not rest until the whole of SA [and in fact the whole Africa] was under their rule. This caused a lot of tension in the 'republics', especially with the number of British settling in the mining areas - because they had so much money they were able to buy a lot of the rich mnes, which made the boers resent them as they felt that they were being 'bought out' of their own land*
1880 - 1881 - Transvaal war of Independence fought between Boers (of Transvaal with volunteers from Free State) & Brits First Boer War 1880 -1881 1899 - 1902 - Second Boer War (during this war the British used larger forces & employed devious & undermining tactics, such as a burnt earth policy [burning down Boer farms to ensure that they'd have no provisions & thereby 'starving' the Boer Forces] and also concentration camps, where they effectively killed more than 26 000 Boer women and children and more than 14 000 natives). The British claimed that mismanagement caused the deaths of the people & not intentional genocide, however their 'mismanagement' included things like not feeding the children, letting sick people go without food, sanitized water and medical attention, as well as leaving the women & children to sleep in freezing cold with little or no shelter to speak of). It is rather ironic that British rulers so conveniently forgot about their own concentration camp policies when condemning Hitler for his practices not so long after, during WWII. The following countries were involved in the 2nd Anglo Boer War : England, with Australia, Canada, India and New Zeeland against the Boer republics (note that no governments officially supported the Boer cause, but the individuals from the following countries formed part of the Foreign Volunteer Units) German Commando, Dutch Corps, Irish Brigade, American Scouts, Russian Corps and Austrian Unit of Scouts) (British & Imperial forces totalled roughly 450 000 according to reports)Second Boer War After the Second Boer War the British, with their larger army finally succeeded in incorporting the two Boer republics into the British Empire. 1910 - The four provinces of SA (Cape, Natal, OFS & Transvaal) are bound as one self-governing union / dominion of British empire. All power centered in hands of whites. 1912 - SA Native National council formed in Bloemfontein (now known as ANC) - fighting for freedom of black people. 1948 - NP (national Party) won the all-white election & passed laws to enfore & strengthen white oppression of black people. (birth of 'aparteheid regime') 1960's - uprisings, Sharpville etc - ANC & PAC banned, Nelson mandela & other declared communists & enemies of the state. Convicted of treason & sent to Robben Island Max Security prsion. 1961 - May - SA relinquishes dominion status & declares itself a Republic, free of British influence. Withdraws from Commonwealth. 1984 - Colourds (in SA people of mixed heritage are known as colourd) and Asians are given limited power in government decisions. 1990 - President FW de Klerk (of NP) declares unbanning of ANC & PAC - Nelson Mandela released from prison two weeks later. 1991 - Group Areas Act (last pillars of Apartheid) abolished. 1993 - New constitution 1994 - First democratic elections in SA - ANC voted into power & Nelson Mandela president. Graymouser: Quote:
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07-17-2003, 09:34 AM | #78 |
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You us Brits have done some pretty s***y things down the years
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07-17-2003, 09:36 AM | #79 | |||
Elf Lord
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It's admittedly difficult to find an exact counterpart because, unlike most countries, the US does not have separate heads of state and government. Quote:
"Air Force One is a prominent symbol ..." : in this sense, the symbol is that of head of state, and by paying for it, the US taxpayers are doing exactly the same as the Canadians do when they pay for the Queen's transportation. The other function, that of keeping the President in contact with the rest of the government relates to his functions as head of government- as when Canadians pay for the expenses of their Prime Minister. Here's a better example- when the US President appears at a state ceremonial function (welcoming an ambassador, honouring a citizen, dedicating a national park etc. etc.), and the voters pay for it, that is the same as Canadians paying for the Queen's visits. Quote:
As I've posted before, have you ever been to Victoria, B.C.? It's simply one of the more extreme examples of Canadian tourist spots playing up the Royal connection to suck out tourist dollars from American and Japanese visitors- there are plenty of other examples in Ontario and the Maritimes. We get much more out of this than it costs for the odd Royal visit.
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07-17-2003, 09:41 AM | #80 | |
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