Theological Opinions

[Janny]

Originally Posted by inked

I tried to make it as clear as I could that the differing conceptions of God really meant something. If I believe as I do, and a Muslim believes as he does, and a Jewish person as they do, then we have radically different ideas of God within monotheism.

By those definitions, it is not the same GOD.

By His own revelation of Himself in the Incarnation, it is not the same GOD.

Christian claims are really quite radical.

Thank you.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

A very good song . Have you ever heard it sung before?

Why, yes - this morning, last night, etc. etc. I really like Chris Rice's music/lyrics.

What an odd question you asked me - why did you ask that?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

.... So I really don't see how you can think that freedom from God is such a desirable thing.

I DON'T see it as freedom from God in the sense that you're giving.

I don't feel like responding point-by-point to your post; I'll just sum up again and say that this is a very mysterious and deep concept, and I believe both in predestination (made obvious by the verses you quoted, as well as quite a few more) and free-will choices (the example of "we only did our duty" does NOT negate Jesus saying "well done, good and faithful servant", IMO. I think it's two separate ideas He's getting across, just like faith/works sometimes seem contradictory but are in fact complimentary). I see choice over and over in the Bible, and people admonished to do things, and rewards - yet it's balanced/complimented by predestination, etc.

I think the song is a good summary of my position Discussion is VERY good, but only if we're ALSO getting our lazy little hineys out of our comfy chairs and loving others as Christ did. And this takes choice on our part, IMO, altho we cannot even exist to choose, apart from Him

[Janny]

May I say (quite randomly) at this juncture that I went to my friend's house yesterday. She lives right at the top of the cliffs and, since I was very early and she was not home, I sat in one of the bleak shelters up there, looking out across the channel.
There, the picture of a marvellous scientific scene. Some time in the next two years I will be given to learn the formula which governs the way those waves move. And look, I could study the biology of the birds, I could study the chemistry of the water.
But does is make the scene harsh, coldly ordered? Does knowing these things make the world scientific? No. It makes the science divine.

You may now attack my semi-poetic outburst.
Prior warning: My comeback will be: 'You had to be there'

[Rían]

I won't attack it. I think it's an excellent point, Janny!

and I wish I could have been there!

[inked]

Janny, you say it well. What you see is rationally discernable by the applied human intellect and is evidence for a rational Designer according to Christianity. But what you see is more than the human understanding of wave motion and hydrogen bonds between oxygen and hydrogen in vast quantities infused with various chemical substances! It is that, but the sum of the parts makes a greater whole!

Reminds me of the shared experience of a Professor of Microbiology under which I was doing my MS. She told of an experience in which she was in her lab alone and discovered that under specific experimental conditions a certain bacterial species produced a protective mucus coating. She thought as she peered through her microscope, "I am the only person in the world who knows this!" Very clearly, she heard a laughing Voice (you could hear the capital 'V' as she told this), saying, "Surely not, Child! I have known it all along." Quickly she looked about the room, not knowing how anyone could have uttered anything so apropos her thoughts, and only confirmed that she was all alone in the lab. Her point, she said, as she maintained eye contact, was that all research would lead to the Designer - even when we did not expect it! Then she quoted "The sea is his and he made it, and his hands formed the dry land, and every living thing!"

I have never forgotten her or this report of her experience in the hallowed halls of laboratory.

[Nurvingiel]

I really enjoyed both your stories Janny and Inked! This is a very entertaining thread thanks to all these brilliant posts... and I am but a lurker... and thread starter...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why, yes - this morning, last night, etc. etc. I really like Chris Rice's music/lyrics.

What an odd question you asked me - why did you ask that?

I couldn't capture a tune in my mind. I guess asking the question doesn't help any, though. (looks stupid) I was also somewhat just curious.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I don't feel like responding point-by-point to your post; I'll just sum up again and say that this is a very mysterious and deep concept, and I believe both in predestination (made obvious by the verses you quoted, as well as quite a few more) and free-will choices (the example of "we only did our duty" does NOT negate Jesus saying "well done, good and faithful servant", IMO. I think it's two separate ideas He's getting across, just like faith/works sometimes seem contradictory but are in fact complimentary). I see choice over and over in the Bible, and people admonished to do things, and rewards - yet it's balanced/complimented by predestination, etc.

Mm-hmm. Well, shall I respond? I guess I just will briefly, with my own summary. Throughout scripture, submission and utter dominance by God is a good thing. Through logical reasoning, one can find that being an utter and complete slave of God (like Jesus was, all the words of his mouth being from God) is actually the most complete freedom. Having our choices chosen for us by God does not make us less, but actually makes us more, for any choice that is made separate from God's ordaining it is one that he logically must have chosen to leave to chance.

To me, it makes sense that we are still precious and utterly lovely to God, even if we are predestined. Like God, we also can act only according to our nature. Neither God nor us can escape being what we are, and behaving as what we are. We have the freedom to do what is in accord with our own natures, and that is freedom enough. You haven't the freedom to act according to my nature, any more then I have the freedom to act according to yours. So in that sense, we have just as much freedom as God. Predestination only makes sense.


That about summarizes it. I'd just add one more comment, briefly, something from my own personal experience. When I believed in Free Will (by normal evangelical interpretation) I found myself swimming upstream. I found myself confronted with numerous scriptures showing clearly that predestination actually is the rule. Now that my view has changed, I find scriptures constantly confirming this different perspective, and no more confrontation with Free Will views. I don't see any indication of Free Will in the Bible, honestly, if by Free Will one means choice that is separate from God's choice.

I just have to have the last word . No, if you want to respond to this RÃ*an, that would be great. The fact that you sent me a summary indicates that you may not be interested in discussing the subject at great length, which is understandable. I'm excessively verbose, and the issue doesn't really seem all that important from a practical perspective. Not that those are your reasons . I just like the sound of my own voice, so I'm still talking . . .

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Having our choices chosen for us by God does not make us less, but actually makes us more, for any choice that is made separate from God's ordaining it is one that he logically must have chosen to leave to chance.

I did read your whole post but I only have a question on this bit. Doesn't that mean that God decided not to exert utter dominance over us? Therefore, even though it was God's choice, it now means that some things really are up to us.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I'm excessively verbose, and the issue doesn't really seem all that important from a practical perspective. Not that those are your reasons . I just like the sound of my own voice, so I'm still talking . . .

LOL Lief... I find myself in the same position sometimes, just not in this thread. *cough* RL *cough*

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Originally posted by Lief Erikson:
Having our choices chosen for us by God does not make us less, but actually makes us more, for any choice that is made separate from God's ordaining it is one that he logically must have chosen to leave to chance.



I did read your whole post but I only have a question on this bit. Doesn't that mean that God decided not to exert utter dominance over us? Therefore, even though it was God's choice, it now means that some things really are up to us.

Simple answer
God controls absolutely, but he doesn't make us do anything we would not naturally do. We have the freedom to act according to our natures, just as God has the freedom to act according to his.
Complex answer
I believe that we have freedom to act according to our nature. In that sense, we're as free as God, for he also is limited by his own nature. Reading LoTR, you would be stunned if Sam suddenly in RoTK started acting like Sauron, for no good reason. That would be a destruction of his freedom, to my opinion, for I define freedom as freedom to act according to one's nature. Sam has the freedom to act like Sam. J.R.R. Tolkien decided everything Sam would do before he did it, but he didn't make Sam do anything that Sam would not naturally choose to do. Everything Sam chose, Tolkien chose, and everything that Tolkien chose, Sam chose. From Sam's perspective, he really does have choices to make. From Tolkien's perspective, all his choices are already decided. Sam still has just as much freedom as Tolkien, though, for both can only act according to their own natures. Tolkien has chosen that Sam will act according to the nature Tolkien gave him, and Tolkien has no choice but to act according to his own nature. Both men are "predestined", while both are free.

Now, a Sam without predestination is tough to imagine. No plot at all? However, a Sam without freedom is also miserable to imagine. Imagine Tolkien making Sam do out-of-character things, for the benefit of his plot structure. That would be very sad to see, and would make Sam worthless as a character- a mere puppet on strings.

Everything is ordained, yet God does not dictate to us in this fashion. He doesn't exert this utter dominance. While he has complete control, he doesn't use it to make us do things outside of our character. That is actually one point at which Free Will advocates and people that believe in predestination disagree. People believing in Free Will often say that God does sometimes completely overrule people to make them do things. Pharaoh at the time of Moses would be an example of this, to them. To me, Pharaoh acted in complete freedom. God "hardened his heart" from a plot-maker's perspective. Pharaoh "hardened his heart" from a character's perspective. It's not sometimes Pharaoh doing it and sometimes God doing it. Pharaoh does it all the time, and God does it all the time.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I did read your whole post but I only have a question on this bit. Doesn't that mean that God decided not to exert utter dominance over us?

If by utter dominance, you mean that he just pushes us completely around, making us do things we wouldn't normally do, I think he definitely doesn't use this kind of utter dominance. I do think he is in absolute control though. Being in absolute control doesn't mean pushing people around.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Therefore, even though it was God's choice, it now means that some things really are up to us.

From our perspectives, we have choice. And in reality, we do have just as much choice as God does. That is because God doesn't prevent us from acting according to our own natures. Even if all the events in our lives are planned out for us by God, we will be acting completely in accord with our natures. God also acts according to his nature.

My brain's getting a little fuzzy. Would you care to explain what you mean a little more clearly?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Simple answer
God controls absolutely, but he doesn't make us do anything we would not naturally do. We have the freedom to act according to our natures, just as God has the freedom to act according to his.

So... what you're saying is... *brain strain*
God gave us our natures, and freedom of choice. If God wanted to, God could make us "puppet on string characters", but God doesn't want to do that.
Is that the gist of it?

Complex answer
...
(Again I did read the whole thing but I only have a comment on this part...)

Now, a Sam without predestination is tough to imagine. No plot at all? However, a Sam without freedom is also miserable to imagine. Imagine Tolkien making Sam do out-of-character things, for the benefit of his plot structure. That would be very sad to see, and would make Sam worthless as a character- a mere puppet on strings.

Sounds like a bad fanfic (see my MST link in my sig for further explanation).
Tolkien as God? The analogy is really working for me. Sam's my favourite character too! By predestination you mean a plot that God wrote for us - but I think it's open ended. The ending of our lives is up to us, based on the choices we make that God gave us.

If by utter dominance, you mean that he just pushes us completely around, making us do things we wouldn't normally do, I think he definitely doesn't use this kind of utter dominance. I do think he is in absolute control though. Being in absolute control doesn't mean pushing people around.

I didn't mean utter dominance that way, but my brain is fuzzy too so I forget what I meant originally.

[Lief Erikson]

God gave us the choices, but he had already decided what our responses to those different situations would be. He chose what is logical according to our natures. So I do think that God does have absolute dominance, just as Tolkien has dominance in writing a book. He can do exactly what he pleases, and he controls everything. However at the same time, he doesn't allow it to turn into "a bad fanfic". We act according to our natures. Even though God has already done everything, we're still acting in accordance with the nature God gave us, just as Sam acts like Sam. Therefore even though God has commanded everything into being the way it is, we still have just as much Free Will as God has, for just like us, God can only act according to his nature. That's my view, anyway. (hopes it comes through clearly enough)

Is Sam a puppet on a string? Tolkien does completely control him, yet Sam still ends up an utterly precious character. Tolkien makes and completely rules Sam, yet Tolkien behaves in essentially the same pattern that Sam does. Tolkien has to act like Tolkien, even while Sam has to act like Sam. Both are limited and forced to act in accordance with their own natures. So in that respect, we are as free as God. Sam is as free as Tolkien, for Tolkien never takes advantage of him and makes him do things.

[Nurvingiel]

Well, the anology isn't perfect, because Tolkien did control everything Sam did because he wrote the book. Except... um...I'm afraid I'm having a little trouble getting my mind around this concept. I mean, technically Tolkien made Sam do everything.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Well, the anology isn't perfect, because Tolkien did control everything Sam did because he wrote the book. Except... um...I'm afraid I'm having a little trouble getting my mind around this concept. I mean, technically Tolkien made Sam do everything.

Yep. I don't believe in even a limited Free Will, but a complete absence of Free Will, if by Free Will one means freedom from God. To me, us being completely controlled by God is not a bad thing, though. It is a very good thing, for a number of reasons. The most important of those reasons would probably be that God is completely perfect. Every time that a human being comes really close to God, we find that he or she comes into complete submission to God. That means utterly complete submission. God does things through the person, speaks through the person's lips; everything the person does is for God's glory. That is complete predestination, if you think about it. It's saying that in order to be the most free (as the person closest to God is), you need to be the most unfree. With Jesus himself this predestination is most visible, for he said that every word he said came first from the mouth of the Father.

I'm using these examples of Jesus and Christ-like Christians to explain that freedom from God is not desirable. Constantly we can see that the most holy and most free people are the ones who are the least free from God. If the rule is freedom through slavery, as I here suggest, then on a broader scale no one having freedom from God at any time doesn't look so bad. Slavery is freedom for those that God has called to himself, so why should slavery be bad for everyone, on a larger scale?

My point is that we can see on the smaller scale (with Christ and Christians) that predestination is good. In view of this, a broader scale predestination makes sense.

[inked]

For a brilliant and understandable use of the anology of God as author/artist, see THE MIND OF THE MAJKER by Dorothy L. Sayers. It explicates well the analogy of the author and characters by a successful writer who had thought about that process. It is not at all dull, though it could sound it from my pitiful but APPRECIATIVE reference.

[Lief Erikson]

Knowing I would appreciate those parts particularly, my older sister, when she was reading the book, chose to read those parts to me. So I've actually already heard them . Yes, they were interesting. Unfortunately that was too many months ago for me to remember very clearly, now.

[inked]

Library, Dude! Library!

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, I know. Actually, I may well be going to the library soon to get some information I need on geography. When I do, I may get the book.

[Nurvingiel]

Speaking of libraries, I've edited my first post to include a Theology Booklist, for your reading pleasure. I'll put in all the books we refer to in this thread, or suggest for deeper understanding of a point, etc. Suggestions always welcome.

Lief (I think it was you) were you referring to the book - "The Mind of the Maker" by Dorothy L. Sayers? <-- is the the right spelling?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Nurv, a suggestion for your theological bibliography
The Book of Wisdom
by Tenzing Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama
and also his Little Book of Wisdom