Multiple explosions in London - Page 4

Spock · 07-10-2005, 03:50 PM

Oh, I could tell you why
The ocean's near the shore.
I could think of things I never thunk before.
And then I'd sit, and think some more.
I would not be just a nothin'
My head all full of stuffin'
My heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry,
Life would be a ding-a-derry,
If I only had a brain.

....laugh and be joyful for all else is dispair.......

***HOBBIT*** · 07-10-2005, 10:09 PM

[btw this topic is off-topic, but I'm on vacation and I have very limited internet access...so maybe a mod or admin can split this into a discussion of whatever it is people are talking about.. war in iraq, treatment of enemy combatants and suspected terrorists, etc]

um we were wondering why it wasn't over because we were told that it would be quick. Everyone (bush, rumsfeld, etc) said that it would be quick.

It is funny (in a not funny kind of way) to see clips of Rumsfeld being asked the question right before the war started "How long do you think it will last?" (something like that)

And he said something like "oh a few days, weeks, maybe a couple months, it's hard to tell - I doubt it will last even 6 months"

And here we are 3 + years into it........

So maybe if they had been more realistic with us...... (not even going into the false reasons for going to war)

Lief Erikson · 07-10-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

um we were wondering why it wasn't over because we were told that it would be quick. Everyone (bush, rumsfeld, etc) said that it would be quick.

It is funny (in a not funny kind of way) to see clips of Rumsfeld being asked the question right before the war started "How long do you think it will last?" (something like that)

And he said something like "oh a few days, weeks, maybe a couple months, it's hard to tell - I doubt it will last even 6 months"

And here we are 3 + years into it........

He said the war with Saddam would be quick. It was quick. It was one of the swiftest and most bloodless wars in history. Saddam is out. A free government now is ruling Iraq.

The insurgency is another matter. President Bush said many times that our troops would be in Iraq for a long time, but that we would "stay the course." He refused to give a timeframe for troop withdrawal. You're mixing issues- the war against Saddam and the war against Abu Zarqawi are two different struggles. President Bush never predicted an easy solution to the insurgency.

***HOBBIT*** · 07-10-2005, 10:35 PM

they didn't really anticipate the insurgency :P they thought that all iraqi people would immediately welcome US troops with open arms.

And stop trying to rewrite the past -this isn't 1984! :P We have it documented.

trolls' bane · 07-11-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

And stop trying to rewrite the past -this isn't 1984! :P We have it documented.

It's not!? Awww, comrade--I mean--man.

(

)

Spock · 07-11-2005, 05:41 PM

We now have two threads, separate topics.

1. Multiple explosions in London

2. How do we deal with terrorists

Please keep your postings germane to the particular thread.

Spock · 07-12-2005, 09:01 PM

We're experiencing technical difficulties with this thread and hope to have it corrected soon.

Insidious Rex · 07-13-2005, 01:14 PM

So... any thoughts on the fact that these actions appear to have been pulled off by english citizens of pakistani decent who grew up in England? And that this was the first mainland attack by suicide bombers which is quite chilling if you ask me... Lets hope it doesnt set a precedent. And the fact that at least one of them was just a teenager. Shocking.

Spock · 07-13-2005, 02:17 PM

It is chilling and more so when you know that just today Virginia convicted an Islamic Scholar who preached against the US, sought fighters for the Taliban, etc. since after 9/11. It took this long HERE, imagine what the time span might be in the UK or elsewhere? Too terribly long to think of.

***Jonathan*** · 07-13-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So... any thoughts on the fact that these actions appear to have been pulled off by english citizens of pakistani decent who grew up in England?

It is disturbing that the bombers grew up in England. This means that even if you can prevent terrorists from getting into the country, that won't make you safe.
However there was surely a brain behind these attacks and they didn't necessarily have to be British. It's typical of Al Qaeda that send a man to a country, let him instruct the terrorists there and plan the attack, and then take the man out of the country before the attack. So the British police will perhaps have to look outside its own borders to get the full picture of the terrorists responsible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

And that this was the first mainland attack by suicide bombers which is quite chilling if you ask me... Lets hope it doesnt set a precedent. And the fact that at least one of them was just a teenager. Shocking.

Actually, a Finnish teenager blew himself up together with six bystanders in a mall in Helsinki three years ago. He built the bomb using the internet. It isn't clear he was a "real" suicide bomber though, since we don't know if he indended to blow himself up or if the bomb detonated prematurely.

trolls' bane · 07-13-2005, 05:08 PM

Wow, when did they find this out?

sun-star · 07-14-2005, 08:09 AM

You mean about the bombers being British?

London bombers: Key facts

Spock · 07-14-2005, 12:22 PM

At least the authorities were able to move swiftly and get a positive result. I fear here in the USA it would take forever, if ever, to accomplish what the Metro Police did.

Spock · 07-14-2005, 12:48 PM

It wasn't all that quick and we took more than 48hrs to identify key players. That's all I was commenting on. Of course most of the US bombers were killed but still TIME is the thing most impressing me by the M.P.

trolls' bane · 07-14-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun-star

You mean about the bombers being British?

London bombers: Key facts

Yeah. This I must read.

sun-star · 07-15-2005, 03:47 AM

The speed has been very impressive (they named the fourth bomber yesterday). This is especially remarkable because - while after 9/11 they had passenger records for the planes which were hijacked, so there was a limited list of suspects - anyone can be on a tube train or a bus.

The Gaffer · 07-15-2005, 04:05 AM

I think there's every chance that this act was entirely home-grown. There were two English suicide bombers who carried out an attack in Israel a year or so ago.

There's plenty of resentment to tap into for people who would incite this kind of attack. I saw an interesting interview with some young Muslim men from Yorkshire who were saying "You didn't come and talk to us about Muslims were dying in Iraq"

Insidious Rex · 07-15-2005, 07:42 AM

Its terrifying if you ask me. From all accounts Ive been hearing these were normal every day people who just decided to blow themselves up on trains and buses. One was a kid who loved cricket and was popular with his friends and talked of a career as a professional cricket player (a future!). One was a well known teacher who helped the disabled and had an 8 month old?? Their families and friends are all shocked by this. Totally uncharacteristic they said. Came out of the blue. None of them had any criminal records. None of them were even on any watch list for terrorism or had shown any signs of extremist behavior. These people could be anywhere at anytime. There is no "us and them". They ARE us...

This event has really made me realize that we arent dealing with simple "religious extremism". We arent dealing with fighting some war. What silly simplistic nonsense. We are dealing with brain washing pure and simple. How else could you possibly explain it? You only see this kind of psychosis of otherwise normal people when cults or the like are involved. This is not about Islam or religions I dont think. Its about human psychology and the frightening potential that is possible for people to become robots to an ideological message.

The Gaffer · 07-15-2005, 09:38 AM

I see what you're saying, though I think this may also be seen as a psychopathic act with an ideological flag of convenience. i.e., file under Jonestown and not under Bin Laden.

With all the talk and paranoia about terrorism, it would seem likely that a person who was going to do something totally radge might latch onto that.

Obviously, though, that's just speculation. We need to find out how these guys ended up in that frame of mind.

Spock · 07-15-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

. Its about human psychology and the frightening potential that is possible for people to become robots to an ideological message.

Exactly, Bingo, you got it. Hooray.

View Poll Results: Should profiling be used to safeguard US transportation
yes, it's called a description of the perpetrator	4	50.00%
no, its too encompassing	4	50.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

07-10-2005, 03:50 PM	#61
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Oh, I could tell you why The ocean's near the shore. I could think of things I never thunk before. And then I'd sit, and think some more. I would not be just a nothin' My head all full of stuffin' My heart all full of pain. I would dance and be merry, Life would be a ding-a-derry, If I only had a brain. ....laugh and be joyful for all else is dispair....... Last edited by Spock : 07-10-2005 at 03:52 PM.

07-10-2005, 10:09 PM	#62
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	[btw this topic is off-topic, but I'm on vacation and I have very limited internet access...so maybe a mod or admin can split this into a discussion of whatever it is people are talking about.. war in iraq, treatment of enemy combatants and suspected terrorists, etc] um we were wondering why it wasn't over because we were told that it would be quick. Everyone (bush, rumsfeld, etc) said that it would be quick. It is funny (in a not funny kind of way) to see clips of Rumsfeld being asked the question right before the war started "How long do you think it will last?" (something like that) And he said something like "oh a few days, weeks, maybe a couple months, it's hard to tell - I doubt it will last even 6 months" And here we are 3 + years into it........ So maybe if they had been more realistic with us...... (not even going into the false reasons for going to war) __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

07-10-2005, 10:35 PM	#64
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	they didn't really anticipate the insurgency :P they thought that all iraqi people would immediately welcome US troops with open arms. And stop trying to rewrite the past -this isn't 1984! :P We have it documented. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

07-11-2005, 05:41 PM	#66
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Notice Of Split Thread We now have two threads, separate topics. 1. Multiple explosions in London 2. How do we deal with terrorists Please keep your postings germane to the particular thread. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-12-2005, 09:01 PM	#67
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	We're experiencing technical difficulties with this thread and hope to have it corrected soon. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-13-2005, 01:14 PM	#68
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	So... any thoughts on the fact that these actions appear to have been pulled off by english citizens of pakistani decent who grew up in England? And that this was the first mainland attack by suicide bombers which is quite chilling if you ask me... Lets hope it doesnt set a precedent. And the fact that at least one of them was just a teenager. Shocking. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

07-13-2005, 02:17 PM	#69
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	It is chilling and more so when you know that just today Virginia convicted an Islamic Scholar who preached against the US, sought fighters for the Taliban, etc. since after 9/11. It took this long HERE, imagine what the time span might be in the UK or elsewhere? Too terribly long to think of. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-13-2005, 05:08 PM	#71
trolls' bane Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe Posts: 5,408	Wow, when did they find this out? __________________ KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator

07-14-2005, 08:09 AM	#72
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	You mean about the bombers being British? London bombers: Key facts __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

07-14-2005, 12:22 PM	#73
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	At least the authorities were able to move swiftly and get a positive result. I fear here in the USA it would take forever, if ever, to accomplish what the Metro Police did. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-14-2005, 12:48 PM	#74
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	It wasn't all that quick and we took more than 48hrs to identify key players. That's all I was commenting on. Of course most of the US bombers were killed but still TIME is the thing most impressing me by the M.P. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

07-15-2005, 03:47 AM	#76
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	The speed has been very impressive (they named the fourth bomber yesterday). This is especially remarkable because - while after 9/11 they had passenger records for the planes which were hijacked, so there was a limited list of suspects - anyone can be on a tube train or a bus.

07-15-2005, 04:05 AM	#77
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I think there's every chance that this act was entirely home-grown. There were two English suicide bombers who carried out an attack in Israel a year or so ago. There's plenty of resentment to tap into for people who would incite this kind of attack. I saw an interesting interview with some young Muslim men from Yorkshire who were saying "You didn't come and talk to us about Muslims were dying in Iraq"

07-15-2005, 07:42 AM	#78
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Its terrifying if you ask me. From all accounts Ive been hearing these were normal every day people who just decided to blow themselves up on trains and buses. One was a kid who loved cricket and was popular with his friends and talked of a career as a professional cricket player (a future!). One was a well known teacher who helped the disabled and had an 8 month old?? Their families and friends are all shocked by this. Totally uncharacteristic they said. Came out of the blue. None of them had any criminal records. None of them were even on any watch list for terrorism or had shown any signs of extremist behavior. These people could be anywhere at anytime. There is no "us and them". They ARE us... This event has really made me realize that we arent dealing with simple "religious extremism". We arent dealing with fighting some war. What silly simplistic nonsense. We are dealing with brain washing pure and simple. How else could you possibly explain it? You only see this kind of psychosis of otherwise normal people when cults or the like are involved. This is not about Islam or religions I dont think. Its about human psychology and the frightening potential that is possible for people to become robots to an ideological message. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

07-15-2005, 09:38 AM	#79
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I see what you're saying, though I think this may also be seen as a psychopathic act with an ideological flag of convenience. i.e., file under Jonestown and not under Bin Laden. With all the talk and paranoia about terrorism, it would seem likely that a person who was going to do something totally radge might latch onto that. Obviously, though, that's just speculation. We need to find out how these guys ended up in that frame of mind.

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