09-20-2008, 02:59 PM | #61 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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But do carrion-birds carry the carcasses of the dead beasts away? I don't think they do. Actually, all bird bones are tubular: hollow inside and very light. It was also true for flying dinosaurs, IIRC. Thus, being light themselves, the birds can hardly carry a great weight, exceeding their own. Now the Fell Beast already carries the Nazgul King (who weights, I believe, exactly the same as a living man of the same great stature), his armor, clothes, weapons (including the heavy mace) and likely a saddle. The poor beast is heavily burdened as it is, and I don't believe it can lift much in addition: certainly not a horse. Remember the Eagles complaining about Gandalf's weight? One carried him from Isengard to Edoras, but no further - and Gandalf was not armored and smaller then the WK. This said, I don't believe in Fell Beasts (with riders) lifting up horses. Zilbanne, welcome here! You are a lucky one - you discuss this old WK-Eowyn-the prophecy question for the very first time. Have fun! You are quite right mentioning Pippin denying being a Man. He is "no Man" in the same way as Macduff is not "of woman born" - not quite, but enough to fit with the prophecy. Same way Eowyn is of Men, but "no man." There is a trick in the prophecy, it proved to be not as straightforward as it looked. It would have been much less interesting if Glorfindel meant an Elf or a Dwarf, would it? Quote:
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But the problem is that Eomer wouldn't get the opportunity for this hit - the circumstances wouldn't favor him, because it would make Glorfindel's prophecy untrue. I am not sure I managed to explain my position well enough, though…. Did you get my meaning? Last edited by Gordis : 09-20-2008 at 03:11 PM. |
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09-21-2008, 12:46 PM | #62 |
Enting
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Thanks for the welcome GORDIS! Yes I think I understand your position about making prophecy come true. - Sorry I'm not good at handling quotes within the messages yet.
Are Hobbits closer to Men in their essence as a Middle Earth race than Elves or Dwarves? So that Hobbits are better to realize the prophecy? It seems so to me. Good J.R.R. understood those cheerful hole dwellers to be akin to all that was comfortable to himself in England. Yes GORDIS I guess possibly Eomer could have knocked the Nazgul down. I see your position; Eomer simply would never have the opportunity to hit the Witch King the way Merry did was because it would go against the prophecy. Part of what helped Merry, was that he was disregarded like a worm in the mud. Head on it would have been very different for this brave Hobbit, I agree with that. However I can't make out that if Eomer was able to hit the witch king, if it would have been as helpful as Merry's blow, to Eowyn, or not. I think for you GORDIS, if the prophecy were set aside, the physical effect on the nazgul would be the same if Eomer hit him first and not Merry? History didn't live itself out that way, so we won't know. But therein is compelling mystery! Somehow I think beyond the prophecy, that Merry had a special attribution just by the fact that he was a Hobbit, to assist in killing the WK, that a man wouldn't have. Sort of like Frodo's ability to withstand the poison from the morgul blade for so long. Strider, Gandalf and Elrond knew that a man with Frodo's type of wound would have been overcome much more quickily. So that in edition to that special weapon, Merry's peculiar Hobbit hardiness aided him specifically in hurting the Nazgul. Honestly I can't find Glorfindel's prophecy in print. " Sigh " Rob Inglis has been reading Middle Earth to me lately. I seem to have left the best my eyes under a much danced upon table at a popular Inn in Bree. A heart swelling aside here.... I love visiting Middle Earth because it's so comfortably familliar yet enticingly exotic and foreign all at the same time! ****** Zounds! Now I want a set of nazgul shaped bowling pins and a blessed set of glowing blue, Gondolin made bowling balls to go with them! ********************************** Knock down some nazgul for all the free people of Middle Earth! _Zilbanne Last edited by Zilbanne : 09-21-2008 at 01:12 PM. Reason: more ideas |
09-21-2008, 03:23 PM | #63 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I guess the horror of the nazgul worked not so strongly on Hobbits than on the regular Men, much like the Morgul-poison also affected them to a lesser degree. |
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09-21-2008, 05:47 PM | #64 | ||
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I think the implication of the backstory is that there were others with such courage, too. The Steward Boromir endured a Morgul wound that was properly treated, though he still died of pain 12 years later, for instance. Of him, “The Stewards” in Appendix A in RotK says, Quote:
-|-Look in Return of the King, Appendix A, section (iv), “Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion,” just in front of the section marked “The Stewards.” It isn’t in the section about Arnor: it’s in the material discussing Eärnur, the last king of Gondor, and the role he played in the defeat of the Witch-king and his army of Angmar at Fornost. Last edited by Alcuin : 09-21-2008 at 05:49 PM. |
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09-21-2008, 06:56 PM | #65 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Edit: I mean, what if the River was a barrier to the nazgul fear-spell? What if they had to cross first and then and only then their terror would hit the Dunedain full force? At night even the most steadfast of the rangers gave way, but some ran away from the start Quote:
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But I agree- he didn't quail and was ready to fight, thus attracting the WK's attention: Quote:
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Usually the nazgul met no resistance. Last edited by Gordis : 09-21-2008 at 07:03 PM. |
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09-21-2008, 11:25 PM | #66 | ||
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I agree. None was your typical Dúnadan, and more rare indeed among other mortals. (The hatred of the Witch-king toward Eärnur was in part due to his peculiar fearlessness.) A Nazgûl messenger sent to King Dáin of Erebor frightened even the Dwarves, although Dáin seems to have not only kept his head, but showed a measure of defiance. Last edited by Alcuin : 09-21-2008 at 11:27 PM. |
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09-22-2008, 01:54 AM | #67 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Note Gandalf's words to Denethor: Quote:
Here is Faramir's retreat to Minas Tirith: Quote:
And remember Osgiliath in June 1318? Have you noted that Boromir gave an inaccurate account of the battle at the Council of Elrond? Quote:
Well, for that Dain needed no more courage than the Gaffer or Maggot. The nazgul certainly could tone down the fear they caused when they had to speak with mortals. The messenger to Erebor was trying to appear nice. |
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09-23-2008, 11:29 AM | #68 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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But do we really know for sure that the messenger was a Nazgúl? Somehow, I've always pictured him as Mouth of Sauron.
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09-23-2008, 01:09 PM | #69 |
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His effect on the Dwarves strongly suggest that he was a Nazgul. Unless there is something buried in the notes - perhaps Gordis knows - I am not aware that there was a definite statement that the messenger was a Ringwraith.
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09-23-2008, 01:50 PM | #70 | |
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1. the messenger was alone (can you imagine the cautious for his safety Mouth of Sauron riding alone through the wilderness all the way to Erebor?) 2. he came at night (also not a usual time for an ambassador to ask for an audience) 3. he called King Dain to the Gate, he didn't enter the Dwarven hall where there were lights and people (Why not enter if he were a mortal Man? But a nazgul wouldn't venture even into the Prancing Pony.) 4. "...then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could." Now why couldn't the Mouth sweeten his voice? 5. "...At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered" - typical nazgul hiss. Compare it to the Gaffer's words about Khamul: "He seemed mighty put out... Hissed at me, he did. It gave me quite a shudder. And Maggot's words about the same Khamul: ‘He gave a sort of hiss. It might have been laughing, and it might not. Then he spurred his great horse right at me. Apart from that, consider the messenger's mission from Sauron's POV. The messenger was sent to Erebor seeking "a little ring, the least of rings" worth the Three of the Seven + Realm of Moria (You think the messenger would be unable to do the math?). And what if Dain agreed and provided the needed info? What if he had the Baggins in Erebor and would hand him to the messenger, Ring and all? Would a Mortal man be able to resist the lure of the Ring? Would the Mouth be not tempted to steal it for himself? (I bet he is about the worst possible choice in all of Mordor, given his personality). Im UT it is explained quite clearly: only a nazgul could be trusted with the One. Erebor messenger came for the Ring. Need we look any further? |
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09-24-2008, 01:55 PM | #71 | |
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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10-25-2008, 10:06 AM | #72 |
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On the issue of Merry's blade itself, I was wondering how the people who made it (whoever they were) know exactly what would cause the WK to "die", and if they did know (which they clearly did), then why didn't they try doing that in the first place when they were attacking the WK back in the 1900's?
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10-25-2008, 12:09 PM | #73 | |
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But the know-how of making enchanted weapons likely came from Numenor. The Mouth of Sauron (or his Master) recognised the sword design and called it "the blade of the Downfallen West". Perhaps there was a unique "school" of craftsmen in Tyrn Gorthad - or in Tharbad? Tharbad was one of the oldest Numenorean cities in ME, predating the Downfall, and even older was Lond Daer Ened - Vinyalonde. There should have been libraries with ME chronicles of the Second Age still intact. A scholar from Cardolan might have found out the know-how of making enchanted swords as well as the IDENTITY of the Lord of the Nazgul. I believe they had his real name and used it in the spell. I think the know-how of the sword making was lost with the end of Cardolan. All of the craftsmen might have been killed in the 1409 war, or, more likely, they died during the Plague of 1636. " It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." I believe, the Witch-King sent the Wights to guard the ONLY remaining blades. What was the point, if such blades were being constantly produced in Arthedain? No, likely the secret was lost. There is no mention of such blades being used in the last Angmar War of 1974-75. And HAD there been such blades at the battle of Fornost, where Gondoreans fought alongside Arnoreans, don't you think that Earnur would have imported the blades and the secret of their making into Gondor? They have been attacked by the Witch-King only 27 years after the battle of Fornost and had him and the other nazgul as their close neighbors, right across the river, ever since. IF Earnur knew of the blades, the workshop for their mass-production would have been installed in Minas-Tirith. |
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10-27-2008, 05:36 PM | #74 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I agree with most of this, and actually find something new to speculate about. Merry's blade has usually thought of as unique, though we are told that both his and Pippin's were "worked about with spells for the bane of Mordor." I have no doubt that whatever mage/craftsman who wrought Merry's blade cursed the Witch-King as he or she made it.
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10-28-2008, 08:10 AM | #75 |
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Gordis, I admire your way of thinking. You are never ceasing to surprise us with your discoveries.:-))
I have thought that a subject of the Witch-King's killing was already well "chewed", and, yet, the guarding of the very special blades made a sence. It's putting the Witch-King's activities at the Tyrn Gorthad purposeful and rational. I like it!
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10-28-2008, 12:08 PM | #76 | ||
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Well, thanks ,
1.We know that the Witch-King sent the evil spirits to inhabit the Barrows of Cardolan in 1636 - (App. A and "The Hunt for the Ring"). Quote:
3. We know that the Witch-King knew that the Barrow blades wielded at the Weathertop could only come from a barrow. Quote:
Also, note that the first thing the Witch-King did when approaching Frodo over the Ford (their next encounter after the Weathertop) was to break Frodo's blade by magic. |
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10-28-2008, 01:21 PM | #77 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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Guarding the blades makes sense, but why not destroy them in the first place?
Yeah, sorry I'm tired. Maybe that was a stupid question...
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10-28-2008, 02:32 PM | #78 | |
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Maybe because the Wights, obsessed with guarding ancient treasures, wouldn't break the beautiful weapons. Maybe the Witch King had never been in the Barrows in person before the year of LOTR (3018): he only sent the Wights there. Or maybe there were too many enchanted swords, who knows? |
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10-30-2008, 03:13 PM | #79 |
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Ah... had he but an Eagle or two to spare...he could have dropped them easily enough into the Crack of doom..or were that inactive for any reason at this date... into the deeps of the Sea..
Whilst i like, and to some degree, agree with the theory about these swords and their art, runes and possibly even the knowledge of the WK's actual name... (a long ago Theory of Gor's as i recall) that may have made them unique - I doubt the WK deliberetley set Wights here to specifically Guard those Swords - IF we agree that they were so bound with mortal danger to him -and HE KNEW where they were - i suspect he would have had them destroyed. Rather i think he hedged his bets and setthe Wights as an added protection / influence in the area - rather than SPECIFICALLY to Guard them - As to Faramir, Boromir II, Aragorn etc - i also concur more with Alcuin than GOR - not many Could withstand the Nine - but some could - and i think it clear Boromir, Faramir and Aragorn all could - regardless the fact that by the Anduin they had to flee when all else had fled or died - Yet, i think Zilbanne makes a good aside in that the nature of courage and Resolve is different, if slowly aroused in Hobbits - call it almost a simplicity of the Soul - that can cut through all else when roused - almost a parable to Tom Bombadil - Could he resist the Nine and the Power of Mordor?... Only if that Power were in the Very Earth itself... I think the Hobbits are more Earthy than Man, and not blessed with great strength, height, eyesight, Magic or Wisdom - they have in part almost a Wholeness of Fea that whilst not indominitable by any means - certainly has at core, almost a Hidden Mithril-like Resistance... In them perhaps was some of that Earthiness - in essence and when really needed aroused - was something hard to corrupt, or break - or daunt or bend - for it was founded, rooted, deep deep into the foundations almost of nature itself... and that of the Good pure steadfast Earth..Not of Fire, or Air, or of Water. Last edited by Butterbeer : 10-30-2008 at 03:20 PM. |
10-31-2008, 04:39 AM | #80 | |||
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To throw something "into the depths of the Sea" requires a ship and thus involvement of some mariners (Umbar?). I guess the WK preferred not to involve more people into it - not to spread the secret. As it was, among living Men, nobody remembered about the swords. After all, the Wights did their job nicely - I think Frodo and K were the first to plunder the Barrow in 1500 years. And they managed only with the help of Tom. Quote:
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