Opinion Thread

[Billadillo]

Brilliant? BRILLIANT!? Ack! Gasp! Gurgle! Splutter! Wheeze!

*choke*

Billadillo has choked on his own righteous indignation....RIP



(I do hope that was just a bit of sarcasm, right thisisthec? Oh, btw, in keeping with the topic of the thread, I give the movie an 8...without Arwen it would have been a 9.5)

[LuthienTinuviel]

the movie would have done a great job of giving you the feeling of friendships between the respective fellowship members if it hadn't of been so quick

i felt like i just flew through the enitre sory in about five minutes.

but what else could they have done? even going that fast, it took three hours to get all the way to the emyn muil.

so, i take what i can get, unless it's a really hairy mistake. like Arwen's expanded role.

i liked the thought of it being expanded, but there is such a thing as too much...

[thisisthec]

Originally posted by Billadillo
Brilliant? BRILLIANT!? Ack! Gasp! Gurgle! Splutter! Wheeze!

*choke*

Billadillo has choked on his own righteous indignation....RIP



(I do hope that was just a bit of sarcasm, right thisisthec? Oh, btw, in keeping with the topic of the thread, I give the movie an 8...without Arwen it would have been a 9.5)

I am dead serious. I don't want to be accused of being critical of the great Peter Jackson.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by thisisthec
I don't want to be accused of being critical of the great Peter Jackson.

*/Hands 'thec a spine.

[Gerbil]

Originally posted by thisisthec
You're both ignorant. It was brilliant.

I couldn't agree more
I think it IS brilliant.
It's NOT the book. I know that, you know that, the world and his dog knows that. To compare a film to a book is destined to failure.
Show me an example where that is well done and I'll find dozens of people who disagree with you.

PJ had to do certain things to get the film done.
One of them apparently was to have some big named bird in so the neanderthals in the audience can drool over her piss-poor acting, her ugly mug, and apparent belief that talking in an Elvish language simply means pretending to have a lisp.
OK, now we've got this god-awful witch in the film, we need to show her.
Now however you look at it, PJ was stuck with a difficult decision. How to get her in. That she (a famous actress) was essential should not need discussion, because it's not for our benefit, it's a pure marketing move. As it is, she had a plumped up part. This is not good. Hardly anyone I know including me liked it. But it's in there. So we are stuck with it.
My current hopes are that he (PJ) is aware how much we all hate the usurping beeyatch and will tone down her presence in parts 2 and 3 (heh, how about Aragorn dumps her and marries Eowyn? ).

OK, now on to particular quotes and points from this lively discussion

'Gerbil has good point'
Oh sorry Pailin, did I forget the rest of the line?

Billadillo - yes I agree the film is not perfect, but I've already stated why I think that will always be the case for any book->film adaptation. A lot of your points annoy me too. Arwen is nothing but a pain in the arse, especially since now I also find her ugly beyond words. But I had to smile when I read this comment of yours:

'It's not that it doesn't match my "vision"...I think it offends Tolkien's vision...and that's unacceptable.'

Am I allowed to point out that 'Tolkien's vision' as you refer to it is actually your interpretation of his vision? I can? Why thank you kind Sir. So basically what you say merely emphasises my point.

JD - another person yet again saying their opinion on things. Which is by no means bad, nor wrong, but your opinion obviously didn't tie in with PJs. THat's life sometimes. Again though, a lot of your points are not only valid, I agree with - there is much in the film that is done differently to thebook for no apparent reason whatsoever and it IS annoying. Not annoying enough for me to not enjoy the film however.

'How can I not watch it when I've been waiting my whole life for it. It's all I've got. The fact that it could have been worse is no solace. ' ThisIsTheC - sorry, but if you set your expectations that high, you are always going to be disappointed. You make it sound like some kind of torture to have to watch it. Don't watch it if it bothers you that much. Let us hope that, sometime in the distant or otherwise future - someone else gets a stab at the film.

And basically, to clarify a few issues:

I'm not calling any one sad or saying they should get a life - I love Tolkien's work greatly, and there's a fair chance I've read more of them than most of you lot. I've spent much of my life reading Tolkien, and delving into it. I wanted this film to be so much. And it falls short in a lot of areas. But at the same time, it is also a triumphant success in many areas beyond my wildest hopes. Having literally just got in from seeing it for a 7th time, the whole Moria sequence as a whole is stunning. The Argonath (accuracy aside) are mesmerising. Hobbiton has been brought alive. Gandalf is perfect (almost!).

I'm just curious as to why so many people are prepared to take the bad but leave the good, or why they think PJ owes them personally their own version of Lord of the Rings.

As to how PJ went on about being true to the book before the film was released, I still think he did a good job all things considered. But of course, since it's all marketing anyway, you all should have known better than to trust his word and simply judged him by what he's produced.

Which I think is pretty much amazing, despite it's fault.

[Gerbil]

I'd give FotR 9/10 to put it succinctly.
I am trying to work out if I'll cry while watching the film at home when Gandalf dies (not Boromir, a wee bit stereotypical). I think I probably will, although not sure.

Currently the only film I cry at is Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence, at the end when they are talking about the Christmas they shared even though they know he's going to get executed in the morning.

Makes me sad just thinking about it
And makes me angry when I think they turned the deeply moving music into some garage **** tune. God I hope LotR is spared that insult...

[jerseydevil]

I really don't think it's a great movie - even if you take out the LOTR aspect. It's an average film with great special effects and action scenes.

Just because Jackson made LOTR into a movie doesn't mean I have to like the way he did it. I know that everyone would have a different way of doing it. But there were a lot of problems with his movie that I don't like. I don't like that he turned it into a action film with no real character development.

One of the best parts of the movie that I liked was the Balrog and the sweeping camera movements over Isengard.

The film could have been a lot better - a lot less action, a lot less comic relief.

And I can state my opinions on the movie - I'm not going to praise a movie I really didn't care for that much. It was an okay movie - I really wanted to like - I really tried to like it. But it has a lot to be desired - and yes that is MY opinion.

And the thread IS CALLED "Opinion Thread" - so it makes sense that people would be stating their opinions - even if they don't match with yours.

[Gerbil]

And the thread IS CALLED "Opinion Thread" - so it makes sense that people would be stating their opinions - even if they don't match with yours. [/B]

You mean mine? Of course - I state this myself several times. Thanks for agreeing

And again, I agree with your marks against it - in particular the 'comedy' moments are really beginning to grate - Pippin's 'where are we going?' and Gimli's 'Not the beard!' really irritate me now.
Character development - not so much development as demeaned - Aragorn is just a blatant coward in the film at heart - unacceptable.

But despite that, I love the scenery, I (now) love the music, I love some of the characters, I love (most of) the effects, and even if that weren't the case, I'd still watch it for the Balrog!

If we don't get more footage of that in the DVD release, I am going to be well unhappy

[FrodoFriend]

Aah! The gerbil! It's . . . blinking!

Ack. You people complain too much. This movie has all the elements of a good movie, and most of the things I go to the movies to see. It is a great film, a work of art, both visually and interpretationally (is even a word? ). Even if it isn't as good as the book, it's not like it detracts from Tolkien's writing. To me, at least, it only makes Middle Earth all the more beautiful and real. Devoted fans like we have here can't help but have minor tiffs with it, since we all love LotR so much, but hopefully no one will say that it's a thoroughly bad movie?

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Devoted fans like we have here can't help but have minor tiffs with it, since we all love LotR so much, but hopefully no one will say that it's a thoroughly bad movie?

everyone except angmar.. or what ever his name is.... Agburanar

[niggle]

I first read LOTR in 1967 at the age of 12. (I was going through a science fiction phase, and the flyleaf had a comment about it being super science fiction). I was totally ensnared by it for the next four years or so, and read it perhaps 20 times in that period. I LONGED for someone to make a movie of it. I've now seen the movie twice and will probably see it again sometime. I didn't think it was a classic, or the best possible rendition of the book, but I did enjoy it. I really felt that PJ had created a believable Middle Earth - a homage to something that was very important to me as an adolescent, and for that I thank him

I don't have a problem with the change in Arwen's role - personally I thought she was pretty cool, and I understand the reasons for increasing her presence in the film. I also accept that many people will not agree.

For me, most of the problems were with minor changes or omissions that seemed pointless. For example - why don't we see Galadriel's ring? It would have helped explain the temptation that the one ring had for her - also had she been illuminated by the light blazing from her ring that would have looked, IMHO better than the effect that PJ went for.

Why don't we see the ceremony of gift giving in Lorien? (I think it was filmed, and all the gifts given turn out to be important later in the books) - also it would have emphasised the power and involvement of Galadriel.

Why the fight scene with the troll? In the book, Frodo stabs it in the foot with Sting and it disappears - it's an orc chieftain that hits Frodo with the spear. The fight scene in the Chamber of Mazarbul was a lot longer than it needed to be because of the troll. We could have spent longer on the journey through Moria (which took days in the book), and built up the suspense more.

But these are minor problems for me. On the whole I thought the film was well done, and as many have said, it would have been impossible to truly represent the book on film. What we have is Peter Jackson's version of Tolkien, and thank the Valar that someone has finally done it.

[Agburanar]

They wouldn't let me put this in another thread so you guys are gonna have to suffer from it!

The movie in a nutshell!
OK: Here’s the film in a nutshell. I’m starting after Bilbo’s departure because up until then it was good.

After some nice flashy sequences and a few hobbits being ruthlessly slashed apart by the Brown riders for no apparent reason the screen settles on Bag end. Frodo returns to find a small window open and Gandalf stooping as usual in the hallway. After a search through loads of old papers where Frodo had put and forgotten his VERY IMPORTANT RING, the wizard throws the envelope into the fire and reveals it’s true nature. Stopping only to pull a very thick Sam Gamgee through a window the size of an envelope he sends them off to Bree where loads of evil, nasty people are waiting for them.

On the way they are pushed down a cliff by a pantomime duo masquerading as Merry and Pippin who are running away from a talking, barking scythe. At the bottom of the cliff they are almost captured by a particularly stupid Brown rider who makes lots of worms and spiders run all over the hobbits but is sent off by Sam throwing a large piece of wood very secretly into the undergrowth. Merry and Pippin immediately offer to help Frodo and together the Hobbits run to Bucklebury ferry. On the way Frodo is trapped by a Brown rider and the other hobbits run on ahead to untie the ferry and sail it away before Frodo can reach them.
Not to be deterred, Frodo outruns the Brown rider’s horse and manages to leap onto the ferry.

Safe in Bree the hobbits get hopelessly pissed and are only saved from ruin by Strider who proves that he is their friend by NOT being mentioned in a letter from Gandalf and by showing them a sword, not broken obviously!

The Brown riders sneak violently into Bree and repeatedly stab some fake hobbits before running away again.

Strider leads the hobbits to an oddly shaped hill where the hobbits light a fire, only putting it out when it could be useful in stopping the approaching Brown riders (yes, they’re back again!). Close up on rider’s pointy toes. Frodo and gang run into the centre, the least defended point, of Amon Sul and are hopelessly overwhelmed. Frodo puts on the ring and sees a pack of zombies, out of work since the last ‘night of the living dead’ movie. The lead zombie tries to get the ring, but Frodo pulls back his hand. The zombie thinks about this, shrugs and stabs the Hobbit.

Strider returns in time to show the Brown riders that their robes are not fireproof as they had been assured and they retreat to change into clean cloaks and write a strongly worded letter to Udun clothes ltd. As Frodo removes the ring, Aragorn spots the morgul blade and has just about time to recognise it before it crumbles into dust.

Pippin, who has never left the Shire, somehow knows that it is 6 days to Rivendell, Frodo may not make it! Bill the pony appears from nowhere and Frodo rides him into some woods where they are met by a Norwegean speaking woman. There follows a short scene with subtitles, filling in the odd sentence with English when unsure what the translation is. Strange woman gallops away from the Brown riders (with new robes) with Frodo and then sweeps away the riders in a big flood. The Brown riders vanish off to write a strongly worded letter to Udun clothes ltd. about drip-dry robes.

Frodo awakes in Rivendell where he has been healed by Obi-Wan Elrond. He is told by Gandalf of the great Break dancing contest and how Saruman has become a traitor, he is using a palantir to predict the results of this year’s world cup.
Boromir arrives and sees Narsil, finding the joys of self-mutilation, and we are treated to another scene in Norwegean with sub titles.
There is a big council lasting all of five minutes in which Gimli breaks his axe.

Going South to the gap of Rohan they are attacked by a strange cloud. Gandalf tries to lead them over the pass of Charadras but is stopped by Saruman who has been eating far too many baked beans.

Gimli persuades them to go through the mines of Moria where they are attacked by a giant squid and a host of little green men. Aragorn suddenly ralises he forgot to reforge Narsil at Rivendell, but it’s allright because he produces a bow from nowhere and helps the nine companions fight off at least nine hundred goblins. After a battle with a big cave troll (other credits include: Harry Potter) Frodo reveals he has a shiny shirt so has taken no bruising whatsoever. Gandalf spots a Balrog approaching and they run to the bridge of Khazad-dum. Carefully avoiding any rolling boulder traps they come to a falling staircase. Luckily the Balrog is too large to fit through a door and get them so they have time to rock the staircase and land it in the right place.

Aragorn directs them across the bridge of Khazad-dum, making sure they don’t look down, whilst Gandalf does battle with an abnormally large goat that someone has tried to spit-roast. As they both fall into the abyss the fellowship avoid hundreds of arrows (probably helped by the slow motion) and run outside to Lorien.

In the Golden woods they are received by a magical transfestite elf queen (white by day, blue by night) who turns out to be completely useless. She gives Frodo some aftershave and the company sail on down the Anduin.

As they pull up by a large, disembodied head, Saruman unleashes some large orcs who run all the way from Isengard to Amon Hen in time to attack the Fellowship. Boromir snatches at Frodo’s ring and breaks the chain, but it’s allright because it mends itself before the end of the film, and Aragorn sends Frodo over the river.

Big battle in which Gimli (Now with his regenerated axe head), Legolas and Aragorn fight off hundreds of orcs before Lurtz calls off the Uruk-hai telling them to “Find my half legs!” Merry and Pippin distract the orcs, Boromir runs to save them, fails to dodge the slow motion arrows and takes hours to die. Aragorn then kills the big orc in a game of baseball with sharp objects.

Sam nearly drowns trying to follow Frodo but is dragged into his master’s boat where he proves that he didn’t get his clothes from Udun clothing ltd and they are drip dry! They sail off into the sunset as Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn go to hunt orc.

THE END!

I'm sure some people will agree with me, I thought it was funny!

[Billadillo]

Originally posted by Gerbil

Billadillo - yes I agree the film is not perfect, but I've already stated why I think that will always be the case for any book->film adaptation.

And I've already stated that I wasn't expecting a perfect adaptation of the book. There are dozens of minor inconsistancies that don't bother me a bit. Believe it or not, I even think some of the changes work pretty well. Especially when they help fill in the inherent gaps created by the book->film adaptation.

Originally posted by Gerbil

A lot of your points annoy me too.

Yes, well...I aim to please.

Originally posted by Gerbil

But I had to smile when I read this comment of yours:

'It's not that it doesn't match my "vision"...I think it offends Tolkien's vision...and that's unacceptable.'

Am I allowed to point out that 'Tolkien's vision' as you refer to it is actually your interpretation of his vision? I can? Why thank you kind Sir. So basically what you say merely emphasises my point.

Not so, my smiley, fuzzy little friend...

When I refer to my vision of the film, I am talking about the subjective issues. Like whether or not Elrond looked the part, or Galadriel came off creepy, or if the Balrog looked like you thought it should. (I for one thought it was absolutely amazing!)

When I refer to 'Tolkien's vision', I am taking an objective look at his clearly established body of work. And I'll even admit that some deviation from this work is to be expected with the adaptation from book -> film. But rewriting the entire climax of the Book 1 goes way beyond that. 'Interpretation' has it's limits.

It makes no sense that you would try to defend Arwen & the ford scene as a matter of PJ's 'interpretation' when you clearly believe her 'plumped up part' was 'a pure marketing move.' That's what disgusts me...seeing someone sell out even part of Tolkien's work for lame commercial reasons makes me ill.

And c'mon, does anyone really think the movie needed 'a big named bird' like Liv to be successful? The movie is friggin amazing! Despite my anti-Arwen sentiments, I really do think the rest of the movie is outstanding.

So if you thought Liv was gorgeous/wolf bait...that is your opinion. You won't find me arguing that with you. But if anyone tries to tell me her part in the film was "brilliant", I'll fight them tooth & nail!! (after I finish retching up my lunch!)

[ragamuffin92]

Gee, how would your review of the FOtR BOOK start out? Like this, maybe--
"Short, fat, and gluttenous, make-believe guy with large hairy feet decides to throw himself a birthday party, so he invites a lot of OTHER short, fat, and gluttenous, make-believe people with large hairy feet, and one tall old guy (because he makes cool fireworks). After the short, fat, and gluttenous make-believe guests with large hairy feet have finished getting drunk and gorging themselves, the short, fat, and gluttenous make-believe hairy-and-large-footed birthday boy stands up, makes a speech, turns invisible, and runs away from home."

If you ever decide to start a web magazine containing irreveverant movie reviews and need another writer, drop me an e-mail and I'll send you my resume.

[Pailan]

Ah, Billadillo, sure I would've perfered to see the Ford scene more in line with what was written.

It makes no sense that you would try to defend Arwen & the ford scene as a matter of PJ's 'interpretation' when you clearly believe her 'plumped up part' was 'a pure marketing move.' That's what disgusts me...seeing someone sell out even part of Tolkien's work for lame commercial reasons makes me ill.

You see "sellout" I see a change for the better. Tolkien was a man of his time so women in his stories are written in like fashion. PJ and company are men and women of their time. So to have Arwen rise out of the background of the books to the forefront in the movies makes a certian amount of cultural sense, imho.

The use of Arwen instead of Glorfindal worked for me. HOWEVER- PJ could've given Frodo his lines and portrayed his sturdy hobbit bravery better and done away with that whole "come to the light," bit.

Sell out? Not there, ask Tom Bombadil were the sell out was.

[LuthienTinuviel]

Originally posted by Pailan
The use of Arwen instead of Glorfindal worked for me. HOWEVER- PJ could've given Frodo his lines and portrayed his sturdy hobbit bravery better and done away with that whole "come to the light," bit.

exactly.. each individual hobbit gets his "big chance" to show how sturdy and awesoemt their race really is. besides frodo taking the ring to Mordor, this was one of his big things..

bad character development..


maybe he should have stuck the "to be continued " line at the end where frodo and sam are looking at the emyn muil, cause lots of people are sayng.. " well that was a dumb ending, eh?"
and now i feel like slapping them for it..

oh btw, does anyone know any truth the the rumour about re-releasing the movie with bonus stuff at the end?

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Pailan
You see "sellout" I see a change for the better. Tolkien was a man of his time so women in his stories are written in like fashion. PJ and company are men and women of their time.

Bull. Absolute, unequivical, BULL. I'm fighting the urge to do very Orcish things to your person. Where are my meds?

The most powerful Elf in Middle Earth, Galadriel, was (guess what!) A FEMALE.

The Fairest and most Powerful being of ALL TIME in middle earth was, guess who! Luthien! Not only a Babe of the First order, but a babe that's powerful enough to put the Dark Lord into a trance. Oh, have I mentioned blasting the fortress of Tol in Guarhoth INTO DUST with a WORD.

The Patron Vala of the Elves is, oooh, another chick. One whom Melkor, The Original Dark Lord (and, in case you've forgotten, a supreme bad@$$), 'feared and hated above all others'. Oh yeah, REALLY weak female there.

Oh, right. They don't play an active role in the LOTR, do they? Wait! Who's this eowyn chick? The one who kills the guy trashing Gondor? Hmmm... Yeah, she's a little wilting flower, she is. I'll bet she faints at the first sighn of danger. And aragorn doesn't sleep with her so she must be Butt ugly as well. No, we need a REAL female character.

The fact is there is NO excuse for what PJ did to arwen. NONE. And you're pathetic attempts at defending him with things like 'oh, well, tolkien was a victiorian' are no better. You might want to read some of what tolkien wrote. Because he's still light years ahead of current offerings. Yes, that includes all this feminist 'strong women' ****. Those aren't strong female characters, they're sex objects. Tolkien's women are real characters, real people. But of course you don't see the difference, do you?

[LuthienTinuviel]

harsh, wayfarer...

[jerseydevil]

It may be harsh - but it is the truth.

Arwen is the worst thing about the movie and the whole Flight to the Ford scene is terrible.

I would have rather have had Jackson just take out the scene then have me cringe everytime I hear Arwen utter - "If you want him, come and claim him" and have to watch the pathetic, overdone "death" scene.

Expanding Arwen's visibility is one thing - having her take so much away from such a powerful scene is another.

Tolkien made a HISTORIC epic - the movie should have stayed true to that premise. It's just like Disney changing the Pirates of the Carribean because a woman's group was offended that the pirates were chasing the woman. I'll never forgive them for changing that and giving in instead of standing up and saying that was the way things were. We can't change history just because we don't like it.

Tolkien had many powerful woman - without Jackson having to create one that overshadows so many of the the other characters (Aragorn and Frodo). I guess we'll just have to see who she dimenishes in the next two movies. Is Eowyn going to be weakened? Is she going to be made ugly so the "unintelligent" movie goers don't wonder why Aragorn didn't choose her?

The real powerful woman in FOTR gets like 10 minutes of screen time - Galadriel. True, she is shown in the beginning holding her ring aloft in the air - but does anyone that has not read the book remember that is her 2 hours later? Her ring is never even mentioned while they're in Lothlorien.

[Wayfarer]

That wasn't harsh.

That wasn't even a flame. It was a list of examples why the above poster was wrong. I called his statement bull and his excuses pathetic. Both were correct.