03-05-2003, 11:49 PM | #61 | |
Quasi Evil
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03-06-2003, 07:48 AM | #62 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Some of these are great, and I don't doubt that the space programme has made an important impact, in addition to leading to the development of an important industry (satellites) in itself. Most of them are fairly trivial or indirect, though, it has to be said. I do have doubts about the cost-benefit ratio. I'd wager that a lot more would come from researching these things directly. It's good that this debate is being had, though, since we must acknowledge that by directing the space program better, it can serve us better. Sending a man to Mars is insane, in my view. It seems to me that 20 times as much can be accomplished with the same money using unmanned missions. It's true that the Apollo contracts allowed US companies to develop and test integrated circuits in the 60s, but so did lots of arms of government spending, such as the ICBM program. The US space program was just one aspect of this policy. I think it's misleading to place too much emphasis on this particular contribution. It's really about the US Govt policy of using such contracts to pump-prime the R&D of US contractors and give them a technological lead over competitors. This is still very much the policy, BTW. cheers d. |
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03-06-2003, 08:04 AM | #63 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm surprised that no one (seemingly, I may have missed it) mentioned satellites. Aren't they part of the space programm as well? Well maybe not directly but they are very much related. Weather satellites, communication satellites, spy satellites (not so possitive I suppose but that doesn't mean there aren't any), GPS, ect.... We would have been a lot less off without them.
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03-06-2003, 11:24 AM | #64 | |||||
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Mighty selective catastrophe, no? And anyway, the previous Permian extinction was greater, and we haven't a clue what caused that, though some guess it was glaciation. Pretty puny guess, though. The truth is, the Earth has reworked some of its surface so much since then, there is relatively little left in the record, and so we will never know. Contentment -- that option we all have all the time -- is to accept that we will never know, and to get on with what we do know because it is all around us in the here and now. And yet so many of us always are trying to escape it.... Quote:
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But this is not to say the world is better. It is only different.
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03-07-2003, 12:02 AM | #65 | |
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03-07-2003, 12:11 PM | #66 | |
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I don't deny the "pioneering" aspects of sending people into space, I just think it's a very different kettle of fish to the early European explorers. I think our expectations of the future of space travel have always been wildly inaccurate. The money would be far better spent on terrestrial research (or 20 times the unmanned missions). I think it's a tautology to state that the world is "different" because of the space programme. The question we really ought to be asking is "is it better"? One might argue that the simple existence of photographs of the Earth taken from the Moon is the single most significant achievement. I'm sure future historians will put it on a par with Copernicus. But surely if that image tells us anything it's that the Earth is fragile and unique, and we should look after it better instead of trying to find other places to turn into a toilet. In that sense, the space programme is enormously wasteful. cheers d. |
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03-07-2003, 02:03 PM | #67 | ||
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Now about the unmanned money thing. We are now just about at the point where we really need to have certain things set up in orbit around earth to better facilitate unmanned device launching if you will. This involves a monstrous project called Project Prometheus which would essentially involve building an immense nuclear reactor in space (!!) to give deep space probes a dramatic boost in propulsive power and electricity in missions beyond Mars, where the sun's rays are too weak to provide the energy for ambitious projects. This will cost a fortune as you can imagine. So either way, manned or not, we are gonna have to open our wallets and spend some serious cash pretty soon. Quote:
the question we should be asking is will it benefit humanity in the long run. not focus on our generation. when you are talking about something as grand as space travel you cant expect a pay off in your life time this is about future generations. most people are way too generationaly miopic (only way I could figure to put it).
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03-07-2003, 06:32 PM | #68 |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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I agree with most of what you say, but I think you've missed the point.
For sure, the Earth will always be here; and sure, the question is instead whether we'll be here. The point is that when we do intervene to direct science (i.e. by driving trucks loaded with money round to the labs) it would be nice if it were done to some tangible benefit. I never said we didn't need a space programme; what I said was that it's a waste of money to send people into space. Now, if a fraction of the money had been spent on renewable energy sources... But then, you don't get to play with such lovely, not to say BIG, toys. Re: Project Prometheus. OMG, just what we wanted. A nuclear reactor hurtling around above our heads. Whose bright idea was that? Last edited by Dunadan : 03-07-2003 at 06:40 PM. |
03-10-2003, 02:05 PM | #69 | ||
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For such a big endeavor, one needs something fairly absolute and impartial to measure relative worth. And everybody's been messing with our minds so much for so many decades now -- advertising, politicking, just for the heckuvit -- and with the main hook being trying to sell you stuff because it's "better," how can we even ask the question "is it better" meaningfully, that is, in a way that includes both disadvantages and advantages, negative effects as well as positive spin-offs, let alone answer it? How can one frame the matter at all in a way that triggers our mental processes rather than our emotions? Call me a pessimist, but I don't think we can any more. Hence all the "gee whiz" stuff and pretty pictures. Just ads, as well as signs that the space program has devolved into one more matter of interest groups saying "what's in it for me," rather than the focus of national, indeed, global unity, pride, and effort that it once was. That's OK. We don't really need it.
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09-22-2003, 01:30 PM | #70 |
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Figured this was a good a place as any to give official salutes to the late space probe Galileo which ended its much to short life by plunging itself into the planet Jupiter on Sunday and vaporizing in its atmosphere.
*taps* *moment of silence* despite set backs Galileo proved an incredible resource for obtaining information heretofore unknown on Jupiter and its many sattelites. Once again proving the worth of maintaining a space program. It may have just been a machine but there were a lot of tears at mission control in Houston yesterday. Rest in piece(es) 1989-2003 (hey how many vehicles can say they made it 2.8 billion miles without an oil change)
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09-22-2003, 02:07 PM | #71 | |
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09-23-2003, 04:30 AM | #72 | |
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Bye-bye Galileo. I wish they just could have kept him in orbit around Jupiter, but there was apparently too much risk of Galileo crashing on Europa. I always get sad when they turn off or destroy these sattelites that have reached such incredibly vast distances from our planet. Especially since so many of them kept working for years longer than originally planned. Galileo may have been made up by mechanical parts but to some it was more a dream than a machine.
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09-23-2003, 01:23 PM | #73 | |
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09-23-2003, 02:27 PM | #74 |
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Well, I was actually surprised that they took the possibility of life on Europa in account and not wanting to contaminate it with earth-based bacteria. But I think it's a very responsible thing to do. It shows that they're very careful with what they're doing, which is a smart thing to do given the scarce information we have on planets with possible life.
It also reminded me of the prime directive from Star Trek.
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09-23-2003, 10:15 PM | #75 |
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So how do we find out if there's life on Europa or not? If we land a spacecraft, there's the chance that we'll contaminate it.
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09-23-2003, 10:50 PM | #76 |
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Excuse me, but I think I ought to bring up something that I haven't noticed mentioned in this topic.
Let's forget research and exploration for a moment. Let's consider pure practicality. The earth can obviously only support a certain amount of people. It's carrying capacity could vary, sure, but eventually we're going to have so many people we run out of places to grow food and plants to produce oxygen. What then? The orginization WorldWatch puts earth's current carrying capacity at between 2 (american quality of life for everyone) and 12 (subsistance diet for everyone) billion people. Other estimates have the earth topping out at 9-12 billion. My favorite answer is to work towards allowing immigration. Space stations, moon bases, colonies on mars. Birth control, of course, but humanity has an ingrained need to explore.
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09-23-2003, 11:16 PM | #77 | ||
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09-23-2003, 11:43 PM | #78 | |
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Now if all the signals are positive then the next step would be to visit that ocean with a drill or a melt-thru-the-ice robot probe. The key is that this probe would have to be completely sterile. And apparently Galileo was never sterlized in this way. Which is why they were worried about it coming in contact with Europa. But even if all goes as planned we wouldnt be seeing any Europa ice or water till at least 2009 so dont stay up waiting.
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09-24-2003, 09:45 PM | #79 |
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Still? Never. We never needed a space program. The study of space is pure science. That's actually what it's called. pure science- any study or studies performed only for the sake of gathering information.
In other words, we'll never need this, but I want to know. Space is just a curiosity. EDIT: Do I /support/ our space program? Sure! Why not, after all? Sure, a bunch of people died, but that should be expected. And they do use our money, but they're giving us all that space information. That's cool! I'm interested, I'd pay to see that.
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09-25-2003, 11:42 AM | #80 |
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You know, I really should post my final term paper. I think I've got it saved on my computer. If anyone is interested in reading it, let me know and I'll see if I can find it.
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