01-22-2005, 11:21 PM | #61 | |
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01-22-2005, 11:21 PM | #62 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 01-22-2005 at 11:23 PM. |
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01-22-2005, 11:25 PM | #63 |
Elven Maiden
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This is a really interesting thread! Let's see if I have anything good to add...
I suppose one could say that a person's sense of morality is determined by "environment". That could be society, religious belief, upbringing, any other sort of something telling you what's right or wrong, and they may conflict, so we choose, one way or another, what to belive ourselves. But, if you're looking at it from a naturalist point of view, our decisions are based on environment, biology, etc. anyway. As for myself... I don't have any religious beliefs, and I don't have any society beliefs either. What I mean is, I see that society's view on morals differ between societies, and so there is no sort of universal code. So... Has anyone heard of Avatar? (no, not the little pictures next to your username..) It seems kind of stupid to me, and I'm not saying I follow it, but what it is is trying to erase all the pre-programmed societal ideas that we've developed, and find the truth starting from nothing. It *almost* makes sense (I misspelled "sense" as snese- sounds like SNES.^^) in theory, but I don't think it's really that possible. Where do I find my beliefs? (They asked me that in my exchange student interviews- I should've just said something simple like "from my parents".^^; ) It's almost avatar, but not. Because, as I said, I don't want to take something as absolute just because the majority of people believe it. So, I am an easily influenced human heart, and I take a lot of my morals from various sources that I feel comfortable with, and go by instinct, trying to make a concious effort to decide on them myself. But, I also think about morals as not something to do "just because it's right" (or "because God said so" for that matter) but based on whether it's going to make anyone (myself of others) happy. I think it's stupid to say something is "good" or "moral" just because God said it is, if it doesn't do any good. I don't believe in anything that reigns supreme over the universe and can tell us what to do. Like a king- he doesn't really have any actual power- he only does because the people listen to him (because he has power. But it's not some mystical "right"). So, I don't think there is such a thing as morality for the sake of morality. I believe in morality of making life more happy, or as I've decided is more attainable, beautiful. That, and my "heart", so to speak, which believes what it wants thanks to society and biology and so on. So, in the end, I'm following Buddhism not because I think it is correct, but because I think, from experience, that it makes me happier. I am the most selfish person in the world (but aren't we all?) and I'm the devil-child like my mom seems to think. EDIT: and that was my 1000th post and I forgot about it... Well, I guess it's ok then. Last edited by katya : 01-22-2005 at 11:27 PM. |
01-22-2005, 11:27 PM | #64 | |||
"The Bomb"
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This discrepancy is something I expect will be addressed eventually, but because of the loop that El refered to, change is gradual. You know, the Church has changed its policies officially in the past, so it's not so farfetched of the atheists to think it hasn't got them all right just yet. As for now, though, they call this a sin for me to ponder, so screw them--I'd rather be an individual. (no offense to devoutly religious people; I know that in belonging to the Church by will, it's just because your individual morality agrees with its. Mine happens to not so much.) Quote:
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 01-22-2005 at 11:31 PM. |
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01-23-2005, 12:55 AM | #65 |
Elf Lord
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Hey, IR, there's a good discussion on that here at Entmoot. The evil and good, reality and perspective, et alia. I'll try to find the link and add it here.
ahh, found this one:http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=...ight=good+evil and:http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=...ood+evil<br /> thirdly:http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=...ight=good+evil So we can revive an appropriate one if need be. +
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-23-2005 at 01:22 AM. Reason: add link(s) |
01-23-2005, 02:50 AM | #66 | |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
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"Art is that which touches upon the universal Human experience." -Aristotle |
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01-23-2005, 03:22 AM | #67 | |||
"The Bomb"
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Oh, I just realized six people posted while I was composing my last post.
Let me respond: Quote:
I agree with you JD, though, in saying that the Church is a society. But it doesn't restict people to a set of principles for people to follow; it offers one for people to agree to, and if they are very involved even ammend or change as they see fit in accordance with other societies they belong to. (I know you talked about canabalism, but I changed the subject for some reason. :P) I think where you see restriction I see very very gradual change. Getting back again to what El said, Quote:
What I'm trying to show is that social standards of decency don't really limit what standards an individual can hold; it just takes a long time for society to get used to that individual. Maybe an individual's views could seem extremist to society at some point, but that individual isn't actually obligated to change his beliefs to whatever is average; eventually he may, but if he is in the majority with his opinion, then society's standards might change for him. Quote:
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01-23-2005, 11:08 AM | #68 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-23-2005, 11:22 AM | #69 | |
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I guess what im getting at is that you need to be careful when you announce the definitiveness of humanity because we pursue art. Art can be seen in almost anything. Art simply reflects what we find to be attractive or intriguing or that touches us in some way and delivers a message to others. so in a way you could say art is about beauty and communication. and when you see it like that you can see the reason for it. even though to us it seems as if art is a higher order activity simply for the intellectual pursuit of doing it.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-23-2005, 11:24 AM | #70 |
The Intermittent One
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art is anything born out of creativity, if even bringing pleasure to yet one being only, it is still bringing pleasure, music, sculpture, dance, drama, paintings, nay one might argue thought itself.
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01-23-2005, 11:34 AM | #71 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-23-2005, 12:18 PM | #72 | |||||
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01-23-2005, 02:48 PM | #73 | |
Elven Maiden
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01-23-2005, 04:23 PM | #74 | ||
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Furthermore, art is in the eye of the beholder. broadly, whats art to our species may be irrelevant to other species. but other things may touch them as deeply and as profoundly as this thing we call "art" does for us. so are the inferior simply because what touches them is invisible to us? or what touches us is irrelevant to them? when a bird sings is it not making a form of "art" designed to "touch" his fellow bird in some way? Now you may counter that well birds only do that out of instinct. But then how does it make us superior to do the very same thing only we can be aware of the fact that we are doing it. the purpose of the behavior is still independent from our consciousness of it. ask any artist.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 01-23-2005 at 04:25 PM. |
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01-23-2005, 09:30 PM | #75 | |||
"The Bomb"
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Of course, the act could be excused if it purposely created lots of good, like if you stole an inhaler from a store to save somebody who chouldn't breathe. From your perspective, you did a completely good thing, but truly it couldn't be classified that way because from the perspective of the store's lawyers you stole, and that's the bottom line so go to jail. So it sort of depends on perspective, but some perspectives can be wrong or flawed, like the lawyers. Or in the case you provided, people making human sacrifices may not realise that they aren't truly bettering the lives of the living, so what they're doing is still bad. As for whether or not the standards of good and evil change only with time, I think this is not the case. In the slave days, we simply weren't thinking so objectively as we are and ought to today. Quote:
On the other hand, if you went and hacked off his leg in turn, that would be a dumb act of spite on your part and obviously 'bad.' I think there's an acceptable medium somewhere, neither good nor bad. Quote:
Studies of meerkats have shown that they scream to each other from across the African plains. They even change tone to alert other meerkats that a lion is coming or they want a mate or their kids are starving. I'd call this communication, and I think I might add that doesn't all communication stem from the soul as an emotional center? (be it fear of a lion, a sexual attraction, a helpless feeling, or in humans "Mommy, I scraped my elbow.") So it's arguable that animals have communication (primitive as they may seem to us, which we may be mistaken in thinking anyway because they might have elaborate sentences that we don't understand, being in meerkat language and all), and therefore that they have souls. And actually, it's beauty that they say is in the eye of the beholder. But IMO art is what the beholder reads into it, so we still more or less agree.
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01-24-2005, 03:38 AM | #76 | ||||
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Only humans do that, because humans have a soul. |
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01-24-2005, 09:56 AM | #77 | |
Elf Lord
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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01-24-2005, 10:07 AM | #78 |
Elf Lord
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Bombadillo, You wrote:
"I think Inked means to emphasize that societies don't create moralities as a whole, both because they only influence individual people's moralities within that society, and those individuals influence/compose society's morality. Am I right, Inked?" You are correct. Societies do NOT create morality. The establish their own ethos as a subset of the moral nature of the universe by selection and emphasis from that overarching morality. That is why it is possible to make discernments and judgments amongst different cultures and societies. There really is an excellent discussion of this process in THE ABOLITION OF MAN by CS Lewis.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-24-2005, 10:12 AM | #79 | |
Elf Lord
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Have you read THE MIND OF THE MAKER by Dorothy L. Sayers? You might find it very interesting in regard to the artist, the work, and the effects as an explication of the doctrine of the Trinity. Though, you might just prefer the insights of the artist and the art as considered in themselves.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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01-24-2005, 10:26 AM | #80 | |
Elf Lord
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But that does not negate the evil, it takes it as raw material and conforms it to the purposes of God. This is why, in Christianity, suffering accepted and "given UP" may yet accomplish the will of God for the perfection of the marred creation. But the process is not magic. It is possible, chosen, and worked out in myriads of times and places, being effective as it is united with the eternal work of Christ. There are glimpses of this process in LoTR and in all great literature, in fact. Come to think of it, this is the same process by which an artist takes the angst and problems of life and redeems them by the art. To bring good out of evil is a work of the will, not guaranteed of success in this life, but aspirational and intentional, one way in which all may participate in the co-creational process with God.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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