lord of the rings= Allegory - Page 4

samwise of the shire · 07-29-2002, 11:42 PM

Sam just asked a FEW questions about what we thought about the Bible and Tolkien...and she gets jumped on with all this sarcastic, serious descussion junk...why cant we just have FUN once in awhile with stuff like this instead of go "Ohp bible descussion...better get on to it."
Ahm*smooths hair*
1. what charicter reminds you of someone out of lotr?Peter=Sam. I mean those too are so alike it's not even funny. Peter loves to taste his feet and so does Sam*looks down at her muchly sucked toes*looks like THEY'RE not the only ones.
2. what thing that is said in lotr reminds you of something that is said in the Bible? Cant think of one right this moment
ex. Gandalf says, "get down on your bally and crawl!
3. what things that happen remind you of things that happen in the Bible? Ummm Gandalf giving up his life for the fellowship, the fellowship being formed against Sauron and the Ring, The Ring representing a burden(like the cross and sin), and the Ringbearers(or Crossbearers as I like to think of it)getting to be able to pass into the western lands
4. Are there any morals represented here and in the Bible?
i don't know, posably there are some!Ummm humility,servanthood,obedience,love,patience,kidne ss,selfsacrafice,courage,evil,absolutes.
5. Any thing else that is simular to the Bible??? Umm the fact that the Bibe story is based on the theme of Good vs evil, and that an innocent person leaves his home of comfort and leaves to save a world that has no idea his RACE exsists let alone that HE exsists.
A truely awsome reality of the Bible story.
Thanks for bringin' this up Chica,
Sam

Rána Eressëa · 07-30-2002, 12:27 AM

It can only be parelleled with the Bible if you believe it so. Really, you can parellel anything with anything if it's even just slightly similar. "Oh look - there's a good guy. He's just like Jesus!"

samwise of the shire · 07-31-2002, 04:43 PM

But Rana LOTR isn't JUST slightly similar to the Bible. It is very much similar to the Bible.
*crosses fingers and hopes people will start getting back on topic*
Sam

Rána Eressëa · 07-31-2002, 07:11 PM

Any good guy on a quest can be made similar to the Bible, as I've said. Any vanguishing of evil seems to be associated with it, and I think it's about high time people just took things for what they were and not what they should be.

Comic Book Guy · 07-31-2002, 07:20 PM

I.Q Test, question No.10

Bible=LOTR=WW2.

So does the bible=WW2?

Rána Eressëa · 07-31-2002, 07:23 PM

Since there's so many bloodshedding wars in the Bible as well - I'd say yeah. Since when was there an evil One Ring to control everyone in the Bible? There isn't. Just as there's no guns and heavy artillery in it was well. But still there is the same message of good fighting against evil - so what's your difference?

Just think about it. Who's the main good guy set on getting rid of Hilter in WW2? There's your "Jesus" figure. The Germans? Ironically, there's your Jews (Romans as well).

If you look hard enough, almost anything can be parelleled - it's just gotta have your main, or even small, similarities surfaced and compared.

galadriel · 07-31-2002, 09:37 PM

Since Middle-earth is supposed to be today's world, just a long, long time ago, of course Tolkien's beliefs about the nature of the universe and God today would apply to Middle-earth as well. So Eru is the Christian God, and the Ainur are angels (but not the winged seraphim sort). Tolkien doesn't say this blatantly, but I'm sure that's what he intended.

You could make other connections - lembas is communion, Gandalf died like Jesus, etc etc - but who knows if Tolkien intended these things. If he did, they surely weren't supposed to be the main focus. And after all, lots of stories have common themes, characters, and plots. I once had a conversation with a friend about the significant similarities between "Macbeth" and "The Lion King"!

But it is fun to make connections, so, forgetting that Tolkien is rolling in his grave, muttering "Applicability, not allegory!", I'll go away and stop being such a bore.

Rána Eressëa · 08-01-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galadriel
But it is fun to make connections, so, forgetting that Tolkien is rolling in his grave, muttering "Applicability, not allegory!", I'll go away and stop being such a bore.

Agreed, it is. There aren't very many good threads anymore, so at least give me some fun ones to reply to.

I'm not saying stop with it - I'm just saying admit that it's you who sees the similarities through simple compare and contrast methods, and not that it's "meant" to be that way.

Starr Polish · 08-01-2002, 02:07 AM

But if

Quote:

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

then it was 'meant' to be that way.

Rána Eressëa · 08-01-2002, 04:39 AM

Oh, bugger. Never tell a person who believes in fate that something isn't "meant" to be.

Starr Polish · 08-01-2002, 04:59 AM

Mwahaha! When insomniac Christians attack!

samwiselvr2008 · 08-07-2002, 10:51 AM

okay, so it is ME that sees the conections, but other people do allso!

barrelrider110 · 09-10-2002, 10:56 AM

JRR Tolkien vigorously insisted that Lord of the Rings was not an allegory. Sorry my good fellow, but the more I read LoTR, the more I keep thinking that you've not been honest with us readers. What do you think, was Tolkien a liar?

Comic Book Guy · 09-10-2002, 02:18 PM

This has been done lots of times before, read this thread.

BeardofPants · 09-10-2002, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liviaine
I think Tolkien's work is influenced by the Bible. Sauron, Morgoth, and the Balrogs are all like Satan, some of the greatest of the Maiar who became evil. Satan was supposedly the most beautiful angel of all but became evil. Gandalf's kind of like the hobbits' guardian angel. I think Tolkien used symbols to represent the Bible.

Quote:

Snowdog:
Certainly the man's religion is reflected in his works. And in reading the Silmarillion, that really starts off paralleling Genesis.

Like any good myth, there are the good guys, the bad guys, a journey or two, and a quest of sorts. Plus some soul searching, and character development.

You could take ANY myth, and say that it has tones similar to the bible. Tolkien's middle earth is supposed to be a kind of mythology/history for England. Sure it has parallels to the bible, but then, the Bible is not entirely original either; there are many such "genesis" stories that mirror and PRE-DATE the Bible. Hymns to Ra and Aten respectively sound suspiciously like the Lords Prayer... and yet were written thousands of years earlier. My rather rambling point? There are common themes in mythology; these are reflected both in Tolkien and the Bible. This does not, however, infer that Lord of the Rings is a reflection of the Bible.

osszie · 09-12-2002, 07:00 PM

ye gods........look at the similarity........the ring = the temptation of the devil.............all the power you desire..but the cost is your soul

Luthien Tinuviel · 09-13-2002, 01:01 PM

Well, I don't think LOTR is really a spin off the Bible, per se... I believe he was influenced by the Bible, yes, but I don't believe he sat down and said, "well, hey, lets deliberately make Gandalf and Aragorn represent Christ", and we'll make the Istari be angels, etc... I think it all happened becuz Tolkien had a certain worldview, and it came out in his writings... So is it a coicindence that Gandalf and Aragorn resemble Christ, and that the Istari are the otherworldly (not quite the word I'm looking for) messengers who are the servants of Illuvatar? No, I don't think so.

Luthien Tinuviel · 09-13-2002, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by barrelrider110
JRR Tolkien vigorously insisted that Lord of the Rings was not an allegory. Sorry my good fellow, but the more I read LoTR, the more I keep thinking that you've not been honest with us readers. What do you think, was Tolkien a liar?

Yes, he lied straight to our faces.

No, like I said in the post right above, (sorry, posting twice in a row, I know, I'm bad) he didn't "make" LOTR an allegory, and I know he said it wasn't, but when you do have a certain outlook on life, it WILL permeate almost everything you do, and writing is certainly one of those things.

samwiselvr2008 · 09-15-2002, 12:41 PM

How dose Aragorn resemble Christ?

Cirdan · 09-24-2002, 05:40 PM

Things tend to become more similar the more you remove the details. It is very convenient to say Gandalf was like Christ because he died and came back. Beren and Luthien came back, there are more than one Istari and none is ever designated as the offspring of Eru. The is a tendency by the religious to see god everywhere by just allowing the eyes to blur a bit. Why can't a story just be a good story?

07-29-2002, 11:42 PM	#61
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	Sam just asked a FEW questions about what we thought about the Bible and Tolkien...and she gets jumped on with all this sarcastic, serious descussion junk...why cant we just have FUN once in awhile with stuff like this instead of go "Ohp bible descussion...better get on to it." Ahmsmooths hair 1. what charicter reminds you of someone out of lotr?Peter=Sam. I mean those too are so alike it's not even funny. Peter loves to taste his feet and so does Samlooks down at her muchly sucked toeslooks like THEY'RE not the only ones. 2. what thing that is said in lotr reminds you of something that is said in the Bible? Cant think of one right this moment ex. Gandalf says, "get down on your bally and crawl! 3. what things that happen remind you of things that happen in the Bible? Ummm Gandalf giving up his life for the fellowship, the fellowship being formed against Sauron and the Ring, The Ring representing a burden(like the cross and sin), and the Ringbearers(or Crossbearers as I like to think of it)getting to be able to pass into the western lands 4. Are there any morals represented here and in the Bible? i don't know, posably there are some!Ummm humility,servanthood,obedience,love,patience,kidne ss,selfsacrafice,courage,evil,absolutes. 5. Any thing else that is simular to the Bible??? Umm the fact that the Bibe story is based on the theme of Good vs evil, and that an innocent person leaves his home of comfort and leaves to save a world that has no idea his RACE exsists let alone that HE exsists. A truely awsome reality of the Bible story. Thanks for bringin' this up Chica, Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

07-31-2002, 04:43 PM	#63
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	But Rana LOTR isn't JUST slightly similar to the Bible. It is very much similar to the Bible. crosses fingers and hopes people will start getting back on topic Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

07-31-2002, 07:23 PM	#66
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Since there's so many bloodshedding wars in the Bible as well - I'd say yeah. Since when was there an evil One Ring to control everyone in the Bible? There isn't. Just as there's no guns and heavy artillery in it was well. But still there is the same message of good fighting against evil - so what's your difference? Just think about it. Who's the main good guy set on getting rid of Hilter in WW2? There's your "Jesus" figure. The Germans? Ironically, there's your Jews (Romans as well). If you look hard enough, almost anything can be parelleled - it's just gotta have your main, or even small, similarities surfaced and compared. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 07-31-2002 at 07:34 PM.

07-31-2002, 09:37 PM	#67
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	Since Middle-earth is supposed to be today's world, just a long, long time ago, of course Tolkien's beliefs about the nature of the universe and God today would apply to Middle-earth as well. So Eru is the Christian God, and the Ainur are angels (but not the winged seraphim sort). Tolkien doesn't say this blatantly, but I'm sure that's what he intended. You could make other connections - lembas is communion, Gandalf died like Jesus, etc etc - but who knows if Tolkien intended these things. If he did, they surely weren't supposed to be the main focus. And after all, lots of stories have common themes, characters, and plots. I once had a conversation with a friend about the significant similarities between "Macbeth" and "The Lion King"! But it is fun to make connections, so, forgetting that Tolkien is rolling in his grave, muttering "Applicability, not allegory!", I'll go away and stop being such a bore. __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

08-01-2002, 04:59 AM	#71
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Mwahaha! When insomniac Christians attack! __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

07-30-2002, 12:27 AM	#62
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	It can only be parelleled with the Bible if you believe it so. Really, you can parellel anything with anything if it's even just slightly similar. "Oh look - there's a good guy. He's just like Jesus!"

07-31-2002, 07:11 PM	#64
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Any good guy on a quest can be made similar to the Bible, as I've said. Any vanguishing of evil seems to be associated with it, and I think it's about high time people just took things for what they were and not what they should be.

07-31-2002, 07:20 PM	#65
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	I.Q Test, question No.10 Bible=LOTR=WW2. So does the bible=WW2?

08-01-2002, 04:39 AM	#70
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Oh, bugger. Never tell a person who believes in fate that something isn't "meant" to be.

08-07-2002, 10:51 AM	#72
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	okay, so it is ME that sees the conections, but other people do allso! __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

09-10-2002, 10:56 AM	#73
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	Tolkien a liar? JRR Tolkien vigorously insisted that Lord of the Rings was not an allegory. Sorry my good fellow, but the more I read LoTR, the more I keep thinking that you've not been honest with us readers. What do you think, was Tolkien a liar? __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling

09-10-2002, 02:18 PM	#74
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	This has been done lots of times before, read this thread.

09-12-2002, 07:00 PM	#76
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	ye gods........look at the similarity........the ring = the temptation of the devil.............all the power you desire..but the cost is your soul

09-13-2002, 01:01 PM	#77
Luthien Tinuviel Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 38	Well, I don't think LOTR is really a spin off the Bible, per se... I believe he was influenced by the Bible, yes, but I don't believe he sat down and said, "well, hey, lets deliberately make Gandalf and Aragorn represent Christ", and we'll make the Istari be angels, etc... I think it all happened becuz Tolkien had a certain worldview, and it came out in his writings... So is it a coicindence that Gandalf and Aragorn resemble Christ, and that the Istari are the otherworldly (not quite the word I'm looking for) messengers who are the servants of Illuvatar? No, I don't think so. __________________ The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hamlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen, Of stars in shadow shimmering. Tinúviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of starts was in her hair, And in her raiment glimmering There Beren came from mountains cold, And lost he wandered under leaves, And where the Elven-river rolled. He walked alone and sorrowing. He peered between the hemlock-leaves And saw in wonder flowers of gold Upon her mantle and her sleeves, And her hair like shadow following. He sought her ever, wandering far Where leaves or years were thickly strewn, By light of moon and ray of star In frosty heavens shivering. Her mantle glinted in the moon. And on a hill-top high and far She danced, and at her feet was strewn A mist of silver quivering.

09-15-2002, 12:41 PM	#79
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	How dose Aragorn resemble Christ? __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

09-24-2002, 05:40 PM	#80
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Things tend to become more similar the more you remove the details. It is very convenient to say Gandalf was like Christ because he died and came back. Beren and Luthien came back, there are more than one Istari and none is ever designated as the offspring of Eru. The is a tendency by the religious to see god everywhere by just allowing the eyes to blur a bit. Why can't a story just be a good story? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

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