12-16-2002, 01:08 PM | #61 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Hello
Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-16-2002 at 01:15 PM. |
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12-16-2002, 02:59 PM | #62 |
The Insufferable
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I like to think that most phenomenon in middle earth can be explained scientifically-that is, through physical or metaphysical rules which can be known and applied to the world.
It's interesting that, if you use this approach, quite a bit of the valar's behavior can be explained using very few principles. The valar's voluntary imprisonment within ea, melkor's bonding himself to the earth, and the way ulmo practically never leaves water, all point to the valar being somehow tied to the objects in which they have placed their power. Melkor had poured a great deal of himself into the earth, 'morgoth's ring'. This is the most likely reason why he lost his power in the upper airs. And Ulmo, who was the (mostly) undisputed master of water, is only shown communicating with humans and elves through a body of water. It's almost as if he couldn't operate when removed from his element. I think that the investment of power can also be used to explain why in certain instances valar or maiar became attached to a certain body. Melkor, again, as an example, was permanantly scarred by several different wounds. Why couldn't he heal? Or the way sauron, after his first body was destroyed, couldn't make himself pretty anymore. If i am correct, then this is simply an outgrowth of the energy investment principle. I think that, when an ainur becomes incarnate, they must literally create a body for themselves, by turning energy into matter. And since a little bit of matter is equal to a whole lot of energy, this would be a huge expenditure. So once the body is harmed or destroyed, there isn't any reserve power to fix it or make a new one, and there's no way of getting back the power that's been invested.
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12-17-2002, 04:12 PM | #63 |
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Yess!
Stopped you all cold, didn't I? ]: )
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12-17-2002, 04:27 PM | #64 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Fne, you just wait until friday when I'm rid of those two presentations.
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12-17-2002, 10:39 PM | #65 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm still in shock over you saying (in another thread) that Legolas' dad had dark hair! Go back and read your Hobbit, young man!! *pelts Wayfarer with lembas*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-18-2002, 12:54 PM | #66 |
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*/eats lembas for breakfast.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
12-19-2002, 05:12 PM | #67 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You're welcome!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-19-2002, 05:17 PM | #68 |
The Insufferable
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*/rubs stomach.
Got any more?
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12-20-2002, 02:29 AM | #69 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Now, now, Wayfarer. *waves finger* We don't want you to behave like Pip, do we?
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12-20-2002, 01:15 PM | #70 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do we sound like a couple of moms or what, Artanis!
BTW, Wayfarer, is your room cleaned up and your homework finished?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-20-2002, 01:31 PM | #71 |
The Insufferable
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No, and No.
You sure there's not any more? I hear lembas goes good with eggnog.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
12-20-2002, 02:45 PM | #72 |
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No more, it will spoil your appetite.
And if you all don't get back on topic, the granny is going to give you all a spanking.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-20-2002, 05:10 PM | #73 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 12-20-2002 at 05:12 PM. |
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12-20-2002, 05:38 PM | #74 |
The Insufferable
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That's the impression I got as well.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
12-23-2002, 06:59 AM | #75 |
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At the risk of going off-topic, what did people think of the portrayal of Gandalf's resurrection in TTT?
I'd always imagined this was the closest we'd get in Tolkien's own writing to a description of what happens when a Maia loses its material body. I was always under the impression that he returned to the Halls of Mandos, "but was sent back for a while", which would counter the suggestion that the Ainur are tied to a specific body, or of losing power to create a new one. Olorin came back more powerful, remember. I liked the image of the stars in his eyes, but then it went all Dr Who on us. A few glimpses of Valinor wouldn't have gone amiss cheers, and happy xmas (I'm off till 6th Jan! Beezer holiday...) d. |
12-23-2002, 09:37 PM | #76 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll have to see the movie again, I can't remember much about Gandalf, I was so upset about the icky Theoden!!
But here's a bit from "Letters of JRR Tolkien": Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-23-2002 at 09:39 PM. |
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12-23-2002, 10:02 PM | #77 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Any final thoughts?
Well, our 3 weeks of "Valaquenta" are just about done - thanks, everyone, for your enjoyable and insightful posts. Unless there are any last-minute comments, I'll be seeing you all in the next chapter thread
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-24-2002, 12:19 AM | #78 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Well done everyone. Artanis will be posting her chapter early tomorrow.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-24-2002, 07:43 AM | #79 |
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Yes, this was a very interesting discussion. I'm having high hopes for the other chapters.
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08-22-2018, 08:09 AM | #80 |
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Heh, rereading this thread has been a nice blast from the past. I find that I still think about the Valar much the same way as I did a good fifteen years ago.
But there are some things in this chapter that I think I missed earlier. At least, they feel like a new discovery to me now. A first one is that while many of the Valar (and Maiar) have clearly been inspired by our Earth's mythologies. (There's a sky god, a sea god and an earth god as the three most powerful beings. There is a vegetation goddess, a divine hunter, a weaver of fates, a god for the dead asssociated with a god for sleep... etc) There are a few figures that do not have such clear parallels that I can find. Varda is one. While our mythologies and cultures often have light gods and goddesses, it is rarer to have one mostly associated with stars and at the same time so powerful. The same goes for Nienna, who is equally counted among the nine most powerful Valar, and yet her field is mourning. This is interesting and do colour Tolkien's pantheon distinctly. A second realisation concerns the Maiar, whose number and names are mostly unknown to the Children of Ilúvatar because they appeared so little to them. This seem to indicate there may have been a sufficient number and that many have been journeying all over the place from Aman to the rest of Arda and that they were free to do so. But that they just didn't show themselves to the Children or made their name and nature known. And just because the Children didn't know them, their stories have not been recorded. Even of Olorin it is said that he wandered among the Elves unseen or in their shape. Which made me wonder, did Olorin do that only in Aman or did he too journey to Arda under Starlight, perhaps even guiding the just awakened Eldar to Aman? How many Maiar were there in Arda, perhaps even opposing Melkor there, that we do not know of? How often did they meddle with the Children without their knowing? There's plenty of fanfic fodder here, I think. A last one is that that Balrogs were not among Morgoth's servants initially, but ones he had to tempt with 'lies and treacherous gifts'. I wonder what those gifts and lies had been because whatever they were, the Balrogs never seemed to waver in their allegiance with Melkor after their initial deflection. They don't seem to have been offered the same shot at redemption as Melkor was either, despite being fairly powerful servants. And I don't recall it being mentioned but were the Balrogs also servants of Aulë initially? If so those seem to be disproportionally inclined to rebellion. Sauron was one, and Saruman likely too. I wonder whether there is a parallel to the House of the Mole in Gondolin, associated with the earth's riches, mining and metallurgy whose treachery (or at least Maeglin's, who was its lord) also led to the fall of Gondolin. Now that I type this, I'm inclined to think it is, and that it perhaps all fits in an even broader theme: as a recurrent metaphor for Tolkien's dislike of the 'Dark Satanic Mills' destroying the peaceful green England? Certainly it recalls again Saruman's destructive love of machines and manufacture that marred the Shire in LoTR. |