05-04-2003, 03:50 PM | #61 | |
Lady of Legends
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Missing. Reward if found.
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The end justifies the means, thought Aziraphale. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.* *This is not actually true. The road to Hell is paved with frozen door to door salesmen. On weekends many of the younger demons go ice-skating down it. ~Good Omens |
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05-04-2003, 04:03 PM | #62 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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05-04-2003, 07:02 PM | #63 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
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Okay, I'm just going to say a few things:
We are not picking on you because you are new; we are quite a newbie-friendly environment. However, you have made it quite evident that you are considerably more comfortable pretending to be the victim of the evil people who don't agree with you, then go right ahead. Also, the topic was not about which existing character you want to be. Original characters (and not just gender-changes) were used by the other people Quote:
Okay, and now I am officially bowing out of this thread, as it is quite obvious what this is, and I highly doubt anyone's going to do anything at all of any value, so I don't see a point in trying.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-04-2003, 07:07 PM | #64 |
Lady of Legends
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Missing. Reward if found.
Posts: 1,083
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They're right ya know about how they don't pick on newbies. I'm a newbie too. I haven't been picked on
..........unless you're all whispering behind my back *looks around suspiciously* ............Nah.
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The end justifies the means, thought Aziraphale. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.* *This is not actually true. The road to Hell is paved with frozen door to door salesmen. On weekends many of the younger demons go ice-skating down it. ~Good Omens |
05-04-2003, 09:50 PM | #65 | ||||
Enting
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-04-2003, 10:10 PM | #66 | |||
Enting
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Attalus ...
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. Last edited by Psycho Kitty : 05-04-2003 at 10:17 PM. |
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05-04-2003, 10:16 PM | #67 | |
Enting
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Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-04-2003, 11:28 PM | #68 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill
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About your definition of hero being untainted:
I'm all for living by personal definitions, by far. I've often been misunderstood (particularly when I say I'm spiritual, but not particularly "religious") because of personal defnitions of words. BUT, if we were going by the rigid definition of hero... Hero 1. A person of great courage, spirit, etc., esp. one who has undergone great danger or difficulty. 2 Any admirable or highly regarded man. 3 The main male character in a fictional or dramatic word. 4 In classical mythology, a man of both mortal and divine parentage, noted for outstanding courage, fortitude, etc. 5 A sandwich made from a loaf of bread or large roll split lengthwise... Okay, the last definition makes me laugh (but it's really in my dictionary!) According to some of those definitions, heroes do exist in real life. According to your definition, no, the do not, except for those who follow certain relgious doctrines (and I don't want to bring religion into this thread). Yes, I have no life, but I'm working on it.
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
05-05-2003, 11:14 AM | #69 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
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Nonsense. Some heroes don't live up to the expectations of their quests, like MacBeth or Hamlet. Heroes fail sometimes, that's partly why we care. Superheroes are not heroes. A successful hero brings what was gained back to the community, a failed hero uses what was gained to serve himself... generally.
You see, thousands of critics for thousands of years have argued what is a hero, and a dictionary is written by people who are not literary critics, so what makes anyone think any dictionary can define the concept of hero when nobody can agree on one!? By Joseph Campbell's definition of a hero, which is the definition I have chosen to accept, it is Samwise Gamgee.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 05-05-2003 at 11:20 AM. |
05-05-2003, 11:20 AM | #70 |
Enting
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you see hamlet as a hero?
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
05-05-2003, 11:21 AM | #71 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Sure, heroes don't always succeed.
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cya |
05-05-2003, 11:25 AM | #72 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I agree that heroes don't always succeed, but I don't think that a hero is just the central character.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-05-2003, 11:40 AM | #73 |
im quite stupid
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Gollum is the ultimate anti hero! hes not a hero and basically has very little thats good about him. He was never a nice person lets set thats stright he killed degol in a second he was never quite right. Killing a friend does it make him evil (maybe) taking the ring and evil dead (nope the ring is alltogether evil)
his life was very awful and for what he may of done you will forgive him! Did he ever intentionally help frodo? yes he did and for that he must be forgave for a while he still kept something good about infact in a weird way i think the good part of him may of gorwn because of the ring as strange as that is the evil was much stronger but at the same time he hated the ring and wanted just to be free in many ways and frodo held him in respect something he not known for a long time. he allmost repent sending them to shelob but the ring had him in many ways it wasnt his fault. did he mean to destroy the ring? No but without him it would never ever of come about. He isnt a hero but we should have pity and be grateful to him
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Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot |
05-05-2003, 11:46 AM | #74 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Like I said, the "what makes a hero" discussion has been going on for as long as there were stories. To me, a hero has to have a quest, at least. Hamlet's quest was to restore order to the state of Denmark. He has everything a hero needs including a spiritual adviser. Did he restore order in the end, or just make more chaos? I guess it's arguable either way. The number of bystanders slain because of his hedging and second-guessing leads me to say that he failed.
Did Gollum have a quest? I don't think so. Frodo obviously did, but I think that's really a smoke screen. The real quest is Sam's. He's the one who is tempted by what he sees in Galadriel's bowl. He's the one who has to endure when all seems lost. Gwaimir mentioned that Frodo isn't an Everyman figure. True. The Everyman figure is Sam. I could go on, but this is a Gollum thread. I think Gollum is an antagonist. If Gollum did have a quest, what would it be? To find his precious and go back underground again? How would that right the wrongs in the world?
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 05-05-2003 at 11:55 AM. |
05-05-2003, 03:12 PM | #75 | ||
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
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05-06-2003, 01:21 AM | #76 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Firstly, I think that MacBeth didn't actually think he was writing wrongs; was there a specific part in the play that I forgot, where he said this? I got the impression it was lust for power.
Secondly, as Shakespeare was a Christian, I've read some interesting Christian commentary on MacBeth... But you wouldn't want that, would you? Thirdly, Gollum and Smeagol, while certainly not the same, are not wholely distinguishable from one another, I think.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-06-2003, 06:21 AM | #77 |
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O yesyesyes. They inhabit the same body, and I believe Gollum, at least, thinks that he is Smeagol.
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
05-06-2003, 10:10 AM | #78 |
Enting
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i think gollum is the way smeagols psyche deals with his rather messed up situation. i also think smeagol wasnt the greatest guy before he even ran accross the ring. but the ring drew out the animal/survival part of smeagol that became gollum. its not really just a schitzo thing going on with him because he isnt seeing someone else. he knows he is talking to himself. but it feels to him like two distinct personalities which it is. i think this kinda thing exists in all of us its just we dont run accross the supernatural power needed to cause such a major splitting of our personalities into seperate creatures like it did in smeagol/gollum. sometimes it can happen when there is severe stress and stuff like years of abuse then you get split personalities. ever read cybil? thats basically what i think is going on with gollum. only its special because of the ring. and gollum is simply the survivor who does what he needs to do despite what smeagol thinks. and has no remorse. in a way you can look at smeagol/gollum paralleling with sauron. cause sauron poured a lot of himself out into the ring. and the ring had a will of its own because of this. and smeagol because of the ring had his personalities split (or portions poured out) into gollum. im not saying gollum is like some kinda mr. hyde or something but the distinction is obvious to me.
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
05-06-2003, 04:00 PM | #79 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
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I just want to make a minor point: technically, although Gollum certainly exhibited some schizophrenic traits, what people commonly refer to as schizophrenia in him re: Smeagol and Gollum is actually called dissociative disorder ("split personalities"), and is not the same disease as schizophrenia. This is a common misconception (ie, the old joke "Hi, I'm a schizo and so am I.") There are different types of schizophrenia, one being paranoia ("everyone's out to get me"), which I do think Gollum borders on having (other types include catatonic, where the person stays in one usually awkward position for a very long time, and the one that manifests itself in delusions of grandeur, such as the guy who thinks he's Napoleon.) Just FYI and to clarify that a bit.
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05-06-2003, 04:19 PM | #80 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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