02-14-2009, 12:19 PM | #61 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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I have been re-reading the Pony and "Strider" chapters. Here are some points we might have overlooked. 1.The Isengarder, as evidenced by Butterbur, had arrived to Bree the previous evening (Sept. 28) with a company of other Dunlendings. Note that this company had to be let through by the nazgul B and C who were guarding the Greenway, while the WK (A) was in the Barrows. Strider must have known that the Greenway was blocked by the nazgul, so the arriving company was definitely suspicious to Strider from the start. But another implication is that the Southerner only just made contact with Ferny himself (maybe they knew each other previously, maybe not). What about the nazgul H and I who passed through Bree on Sept 26? The Dunlending was not yet come. Did the nazgul make acquaintance with Ferny all on their own? Did they "chance" upon him or did they get the info about him from the Dunlending during his questioning on the road south of Bree? Did Harry Goatleaf sent them to Ferny? Anyway there is a possibility that on Sept 26 the nazgul didn’t meet Ferny at all, so maybe they didn’t go straight to Ferny’s house on Sept. 29. Perhaps they only got there following the Isengarder on his way out of the Inn. Note here: Strider did say about Ferny: “Queer folk call at his house” I wonder did he mean the nazgul or the Southerner/other ruffians? 2. Important for Alcuin's timeline: Ferny and the Southerner and Harry DID NOT leave Pony together with the crowd of dissatisfied Breefolk. They left at least 10-15 minutes before them, if not more, STRAIGHT AFTER the Ring-trick. The rest remained excited, wondering and arguing about the explanation for quite some time, first with Butterbur, then with Frodo himself. In your time-line, Alcuin, you should correct Ferny’s column, IMO, making the three bad guys leave almost at the same time as Frodo has accident, about 9.47 PM. So, if, as you say, Alcuin, Merry was by the front door by the time of Frodo’s accident, he may have not registered the exit of three inconspicuous men while he was gazing at stars. The exit of a whole crowd later he couldn’t have missed, so it is safe to assume the general exit occurred later. My version of events: 9.45 Merry returns from stroll, gazes at stars. Frodo has “accident.” The Nazgul (H) is immobile in the shadows, watching the Common room windows from across the street. 9.47 Ferny+Isengarder quietly exit, turn south, Merry pays them no heed - he is still by the door. 9.49 The Nazgul (H) stirs and starts to follow after Ferny+Isengarder; he moves past Merry. (He had been opposite the windows of the common room, thus to the north from Merry and has to go south). His movement is observed by Merry and the Nazgul notices his awareness. The Nazgul lures Merry to follow, thinking to learn something useful from questioning the hobbit, if the Isengarder's report proves uninteresting. So they go south: Ferny and Isengarder are ahead, then the Nazgul, then Merry who has lost the sight of those ahead and falls behind. 10.05 Ferny and Isengarder reach Ferny’s house (It is about ¾ of a mile from Pony to Ferny’s house. It takes the Men about 15 min to get there) The Nazgul catches up with them and the Isengarder makes his report by the hedge. 10.10 Merry reaches Ferny’s house (it takes the hobbit about 20 min to get there). He overhears the conversation (Nazgul-Isengarder) by the hedge. 10.15 Merry faints from Black Breath and lies there. The Nazgul hears the rest of the news and forgets about Merry. 10.20 Nazgul H leaves Bree to send his comrade F to the WK. If the other two nazgul (FI) and the three horses are outside of Bree, it may take some time: about 45 min to find the others and to return back. (that is my explanation why Merry had been left lying on the road for so long.) 3. Now let us return to the parlor. Quote:
4. The account of the conversation in the parlor between the time Nob was sent to look for Merry and their return I read in under 15 minutes. But on Fonstad’s map of Bree the distance between the West Gate and South Gate is about a mile (by the road). Nob traveled this distance twice: Pony-West Gate – South Gate- Pony: so two miles overall. It had to take him about an hour to return to the Pony with Merry. Thus I place their return to the parlor at 11.25-11.30 10.30 Nob leaves the Pony, goes to West gate, then back to Pony (passing it around 10.50), then goes to South gate 10.50 Outside the South Gate Nazgul F leaves for Andrath with the news. The first nazgul H goes back, climbs over the gate and returns to Bree. 11.05 The first nazgul H returns to Ferny’s house, sees Merry still in a swoon on the road and orders Ferny and the Isengarder to carry him inside Bill’s house. 11.10. Nob comes to Ferny’s house (20 min from Pony), shouts and the ruffians drop Merry. 11.25 Nob and Merry return to the Pony (it takes them only 15 min, because they run all the way.) What do you think? Last edited by Gordis : 02-14-2009 at 12:23 PM. |
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02-14-2009, 01:26 PM | #62 | |
Elf Lord
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http://www.csgnetwork.com/sunriseset.html is 5:59AM.
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02-14-2009, 02:25 PM | #63 | ||
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Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. Last edited by Olmer : 02-14-2009 at 02:35 PM. |
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02-14-2009, 05:10 PM | #64 |
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Not totally relevant, but interesting is that Shakespeare, in Henry IV, Part 2 has Falstaff remind Shallow that "We have heard the chimes at midnight," suggesting that this was an unusual accomplishment. However in the Middle Ages, the monks and nuns were forced to rise in the middle of the night for the "Midnight Office" (not usually prayed by the laity) and "Vespers" at dawn. Admittedly, Middle-earth was a pre-Christian society, but this shows it was not unheard of.
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02-14-2009, 05:18 PM | #65 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I don't know, Olmer. The road runs from north to south through Bree for approximately 7000 feet. If Bree was only 70 acres, then it would have been a band 440 feet wide along the road. This can't be correct. If Bree was 70 hectares (1 hectare is about 2.5 acres), then the band would have been 1100 feet wide. But according to the map 1100 feet from the road wouldn't have reached the hedge to the west (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the west side of the road) or a large proportion of the houses to the east (even if the entire 1100 feet was on the east side of the road).
Like I said, I don't know much about this. Still, according to this map the dike and hedge were about 2.5 miles long yet still didn't come anywhere close to encircling the whole town. Does that sound like the Bree that Frodo and Co. encounter? If these distances are correct, then the Hobbits living at the end of the road winding up the hillside had to walk about a mile and a half to get to their local tavern. Poor saps. If they needed to get from their homes to the south gate, they had a two and a half mile walk ahead of them, through what Tolkien described as a village. Seems like a rather large village to me. Gordis, I like your sequence of events concerning the early departure of Ferny and the Southerner, the Nazgul following them, and this causing Merry to notice and then follow the Nazgul. Makes sense. I think some of your times are greatly stretched due to working with a map that depicts Bree as being much larger than it should be. For instance, there is no way that the time between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry's return should/could have been over an hour. I would like to wait and see what Alcuin has to say about the map situation before making any more comments regarding the distances in Bree. Quote:
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The wording here leads me to believe that this has been going on for a while, since long before the time we are discussing. This fits with Ferny's having been a spy of Saruman and with the Rangers having been aware of Saruman's spies for a good while prior to Frodo's flight. |
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02-14-2009, 05:48 PM | #66 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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However, I don't believe that the nazgul waited long after the exit of the Isengarder - he must have been impatient to hear the news. Therefore the crowd left the Inn after the nazgul and Merry were gone. Quote:
And that reduces all the distances 3:1. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 02-14-2009 at 05:50 PM. |
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02-14-2009, 05:56 PM | #67 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Oh, just noticed the side entrance, from the lane, right between the parlor and the Hobbits' rooms! Of course Merry stood by it!
The nazgul likely stood closer to the corner to watch both entrances to the Inn. Edit : Two entrances fit this quote: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 02-14-2009 at 06:13 PM. |
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02-14-2009, 06:04 PM | #68 | ||
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Last edited by Gordis : 02-14-2009 at 06:14 PM. |
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02-14-2009, 07:04 PM | #69 |
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Well, I am certainly delighted that everyone is looking hard at this to determine what happened in Bree and when and where. Gordis, I think you are correct: I reread “The Sign of the Prancing Pony”, and Ferny and the Isengarder left the Inn quite soon after Frodo’s “accident”, with Harry the Gatekeeper (who has been suffering Heisenberg Syndrome for 5 years now) in tow, before the rest of the crowd, who stayed . Let me reread it to be sure that I have everything in order, I will make that correction in the rough time-line.
I have one comment on the all overwhelming information: I will do the best I can to fit everything that’s still out of place into the rough time-line. I need to read everyone’s posts thoroughly: I will have a lot of questions, and if you can, try to answer them without too much delay. It may be late tonight or tomorrow before I began to post again. (It’s a three-day weekend in the United States: Monday is the observation of George Washington’s birthday, which we now call “President’s Day” because Lincoln’s birthday is also nearby. Washington’s birthday is February 22, 1732, in the Gregorian calendar (“New Style”), but England and its colonies were still using the Julian calendar when he was born on February 11, 1732, Old Style. Monday, of course, will be the 16th.) Just a few quick points:
Last edited by Alcuin : 02-14-2009 at 07:13 PM. |
02-14-2009, 07:44 PM | #70 |
Elven Warrior
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I was afraid you were going to say that. I agree this is probably what has to be done, but I think we will probably run into timing issues after Ferny, the Southerner, the Nazgul, and Merry go for that long stroll south (as evidenced already by Gordis's timeline suggestions).
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02-14-2009, 07:45 PM | #71 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
More likely, he didn't check sunrise times as meticulously as we're doing.
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02-15-2009, 03:30 AM | #72 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
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We can speculate it was introduced by Sauron during Dark years (seems like his kind of regulation) and then everyone has become used to it. See also this quote: Quote:
About Bree. Fonstad's map seems to have at least one noticeable deviation from the LOTR description. Fonstad has the third Gate, North Gate, which Bree didn't have, IMO: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 02-15-2009 at 05:35 AM. |
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02-15-2009, 04:20 AM | #73 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Answering my own question
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02-15-2009, 05:40 AM | #74 | ||||||
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Just reread “Prancing Pony” and “Strider”.
As a general note on the presence of the Black Rider outside the Inn.
When I ping Entmoot, I have no rights and no privileges. If Entmoot is down, or Ben has disabled the ping response, nothing will happen; otherwise, Entmoot will say, “I’m here, I’m here, I’m here.” That’s what the Ring has done, except for the One Ring to say, “I’m here,” it needed to show itself by having Frodo put it on. We can discuss whether it is purely machine or sentient or semi- sentient elsewhere: but I think that’s the Nazgûl standing across the Road. He has no rights, and no control: but like ping, asking the One Ring if it’s there might be a pretty low-level request, and one with which Sauron would surely have equipped his Nine Bogeymen if at all possible: otherwise, they might not find it at all. And the Ringwraith in the Road still didn’t find it on his own (Khamûl or the Witch-king would have, I think): he had to be told by the Isengarder what happened, or so I gather from the “Hunt for the Ring” manuscript citations in RC. -|-I read all the dialogue of Strider and the hobbits out loud. I timed myself. I have read The Lord of the Rings aloud to my children at least four times. I’m not a professional actor, but I think I read it neither too quickly not too slowly. I did not account for movement, but for breathing, how long it took to speak the words, and for obvious (short) pauses. The dialogue is interrupted by Butterbur’s entry into the parlor with Gandalf’s overdue letter. (More about this at another time, but in fact, with Gandalf’s letter delivered at just this moment with Aragorn in the room, and Frodo alarmed and in distress, it could not have come at a better moment: and so Butterbur’s bad memory might be seen as a blessing.) It took me 12 minutes to read the first half of the dialogue, and that should properly be accompanied by some action (closing the door, building the fire): I think 15 minutes is quite fair. At this point, as Gordis has already pointed out, Butterbur sends Nob to look for Merry. The second half of the dialogue involves Frodo reading the letter and passing it to Sam and Pippin, and Aragorn mock-threatening the hobbits to win their trust (mock-threatening because he isn’t really threatening: i.e., he is no threat, because he could take the Ring). This took me a full 15 minutes, and then Merry bangs open the door, runs in the room, and Nob follows. I haven’t yet moved Ferny, the Isengarder, and Harry “the Heisenberg” Gatekeeper to leave just after Frodo’s accident in the rough time-line: that’s tomorrow’s task. (Yes, I know I’m putting off until tomorrow what I could do tonight, but it’s almost 4 AM here.) Look back at the post or the website. I think that Aragorn’s discussion with the hobbits, Butterbur’s entry into the room, and Nob’s departure are all in about the correct timeframe, except that Butterbur’s sending Nob needs to move to the next “turn”. Now this creates a problem. Some of you have noticed that Fonstad has marked a side-door to the Inn through which Merry might have passed. The door isn’t mentioned in the text, nor in the drafts, as far as I can tell: the only way she would know that is that
This brings us to another point. The second half of the dialogue, where Frodo reads Gandalf’s letter, has some “acting” or movement for which I did not account: for instance, Frodo examines the letter and its seal very carefully, and Aragorn draws the broken Narsil from its sheath, just to name two. These will extend the length of time this “turn” would last in “real life”; but of course, we’re ignoring extensions and contractions of “turns” for this exercise. (Or the DM goes batty.) Let’s assume a best-case scenario, that Nob, who’s been sent to put hot water in the bedrooms, is standing right outside the door when Butterbur steps out at the end of the last turn. According to Fonstad’s map, the fastest way out is not though the north-facing side door, but out the main door. Nob might step out the side door if it meant that he could look up at the North-Gate (not mentioned in the text, and surely little used it at all) and the West-Gate. Hammond and Scull have kindly provided us with the moons Tolkien used (RC, “Chronologies, Calendars and Moon” in the preliminaries before the novel itself begins), and September 29 was two days past the first quarter. Now, in “Knife in the Dark”, the moon is up early; but we have a little more than quarter-moon light, and Nob with a lamp. Can Nob see a thousand feet into the night with half-moon light and a light? And if he can, how long did it take him (Nob’s a hobbit, remember) to get close enough to Ferny’s house to see whoever it was (Frick and Frack, I say) lifting Merry and yell so that they drop him? After all that. Merry still has to run home and bang the door. The time problem is here: Unless the second half of the dialogue between Strider and the hobbits (after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter and then leaves) takes more than 15 minutes – more like 30 minutes, but certainly more than 15! – I think we might have found an error. It could be Tolkien’s error if he has too much happening too fast; or it could be Fonstad’s error, she’s made Bree too big. Or it could be that Fonstad has correctly drawn Bree from a Tolkien sketch, but Tolkien sketched Bree too long from east to west. I’m in favor of this last: Tolkien used a sketch, Fonstad saw it, but the sketch makes Bree to “wide” longitudinally, from east to west. It isn’t a half-mile or a mile to Ferny’s house: it’s a much shorter distance. I think that will satisfy Olmer and CAB, and I think it is probably very close to the truth. -|-After Merry enters the room, Strider himself remarks that Quote:
-|-I’ll make two changes tomorrow:
-|-How shall we interpret the very “busy” turn with Gandalf’s letter, Nob’s search for Merry, and Merry’s run back to the Inn? Can all that really in 15 (or 20) minutes, or is this more like two turns? And did Fonstad (and presumably Tolkien before her) sketch Bree too wide? Everyone please let me know what you think! And did I leave anything out from anyone? -|- Quote:
I really don’t like daylight savings time. Ben Franklin was right: it’s a joke. And it’s fouling up my rough time-line. |
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02-15-2009, 07:12 AM | #75 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Alcuin,
I like the ping idea, and everything you say in this relation seems correct. Quote:
I propose we should base our timeline on these canonic times, not on distances on Fonstad's uncanonic map, (or, alternatively, make two versions of the timeline - one according to the text only) I think Fonstad had access to some Tolkien sketches for Bree, but likely those were without scalebars. She added scalebars, but got it wrong. Well it happens, she was an awesome map-maker regardless. Also think on it: what was the point for sending Nob with a lantern to look for Merry in such a HUGE town as Bree seems to be: with main road a mile long, another two miles long etc? Most likely search parties would be organized, Strider would have gone etc. Tolkien calls Bree "little village". Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 02-15-2009 at 10:33 AM. |
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02-15-2009, 08:38 AM | #76 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
1. The times we get using the map will not work with those we get from the text. Either the map or the text is flawed. I vote for the map. 2. As Gordis points out, the map is uncanonic. 3. So far as I can tell, we don't need the map. It is only being used to (hopefully) backup and visualize what we get from the text. 4. Altering the map doesn’t seem to be a good option to me. What will we alter next? 5. We don't know who made the scaling mistake (assuming that is the only mistake on the map, see Gordis's earlier quote regarding an extra gate), Tolkien or Fonstad. 6. I think you would be better served using your timeline to demonstrate that the map is flawed. Considering that it is supposed to be a small town/village, Bree as depicted on the map appears too large. Using other information, your timeline proves it. 7. It seems, Alcuin, that your main purpose here is to show how masterfully Tolkien put this scene together. You would be hurting your own cause by including a map that makes the times gathered from the text (nearly) impossible. And this isn't necessary. Tolkien didn't draw this map. Quote:
Edit: Alcuin, you mentioned that Bree in the map may have been too "wide". But even if it was "narrower", the road through this (supposedly) small and (definitely) hedged/diked town still would have exceeded a mile. I think the simpler and more likely explanation is that the scale is wrong. It would seem that Gordis thinks so too. If you really want to utilize the map, maybe we can do it this way: Complete the timeline using the text, dusk times, sunset times, "acting out scene" times, etc. Then we can go back and try to find a range of scales that would make the map fit the timeline (I am guessing the scale should be about 1/3 of what it is now, or even less). Once this is done, perhaps we could make some guesses as to what mistake lead to the scale problem. Last edited by CAB : 02-15-2009 at 11:14 AM. |
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02-15-2009, 01:18 PM | #77 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Bree map
I have a new finding to share.
I was going to write a post telling that none of Tolkien's sketches of maps have scalebars. I was checking HOME - and what did I find? Tolkien's own map of Bree! Home VI (The Return of the Shadow) p.335 I have scanned it for you. There was no scalebar, note - there was the whole page reproduced, I have cut the empty edges. The layout is pretty much like Fonstad's, but the West gate is further away from the Pony - in Tolkien's version the Pony is only a little bit further from the South Gate than it is from the West Gate. Ah, yes, the third, North Gate is present in the map (with a small lane leading to it), though there is no mention of it in the final text. I think Tolkien later rejected the idea (what is the use of a special Gate leading to deserted Greenway in the direction of the long-dead Fornost?). But the North Gate had been of importance in the rejected drafts: it was this gate Gandalf used to slip out of Bree quietly (HOME 6, p.347.) Anyway, the map fits with what we read in LOTR in all other respects. Quote:
Tis quote also leaves the impression that it was fairly close from the Gate to the Pony, so the same must apply to the southern side as well. Also in a rejected version, Harry at the West Gate let the nazgul pass then Quote:
Also have another look on the map: the distance from the Crossroads beyond the West Gate to the gate is 2/3 of the distance Gate-Pony. Here is a passage from HOME 7, p.74 Quote:
I think all of this evidence combined proves that all the mess comes from the wrong scale bar on Fonstad's map. About the additional entrance to the Inn: Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 02-15-2009 at 01:23 PM. |
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02-15-2009, 02:01 PM | #78 |
Elven Warrior
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Great finds, Gordis.
Fonstad's map is clearly shown to be inaccurate. Wherever the scale may have come from (couldn't be Tolkien's map), it is obviously incorrect. The quotes prove that Bree was far more compact than what is seen on Fonstad's map. They show that the distance between the West Gate and crossroads is much less than the 1/4 mile on Fonstad's map. Tolkien's own map shows that even Bree's proportions were misrepresented. Tolkien's map may not be as pretty, but surely it takes precedence. We are examining his work here, not Fonstad's. What do you say, Alcuin? Are we switching maps? One more time….Great finds, Gordis. Not that I have anything against Ms. Fonstad, but that map has really been bugging me. |
02-15-2009, 08:02 PM | #79 | ||||
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The map is only for the purpose of placement and relative distance. If we assume that the scale is off, then the relative distances remain unchanged. I suspect that Fonstad actually saw a Tolkien sketch, but one without scale. If we let go the scale, the problem goes away.
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In the final version, there are about 100 houses of the Big Folk in Bree, and about as many Little Folk. That makes the population around 1200–2000, I expect. Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 02-15-2009 at 08:33 PM. Reason: emphasize equidistance of the Inn from the town gates by bolding text |
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02-16-2009, 01:42 AM | #80 |
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I’ve started to update the rough time-line.
Using Tolkien’s rough sketch from Return of the Shadow instead of Fonstad’s map of Bree makes a tremendous difference. It is about as far to the South Gate from the Prancing Pony as it is the West Gate. Butterbur still sends Nob after Merry in the same time-block as before, not the next time-block. Gordis, you and I both read those passages aloud, and as best I can determine, Butterbur leaves the scene and sends Nob on his search about half-way through that time-block. Ferny and his visitor from Isengard now reach Ferny’s house before Merry and the Black Rider. This suggests that Ferny and the Isengarder pass the Black Rider when they leave the Inn. The Black Rider stays there, and Merry returns to find him still standing across the Road from the Inn. Somehow, that doesn’t feel quite right to me: was there a second Black Rider outside, too, that walked home with them? They passed the Nazgûl, and he didn’t join them? They didn’t see him? I’m not certain we have assessed the order of events correctly here:
I can’t help but notice that, had the Commons room emptied any faster, lots of Bree-folk would have found this weird, scary guy standing across the road from their favorite watering-hole. Now, here’s the biggie: The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien appears to be using British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) for his time for sunrise the following morning. Are we using standard time, which the sun at its zenith at noon, or daylight savings time, as Tolkien appears to have, with the sun at its zenith at 1 o’clock?Without using daylight savings time, with the sun at its zenith at noon (standard time), here is the rough time-line as it stands right now: I think we’re going to be forced to use BST (daylight savings time) in order to account for the all the things that happen the next morning. As it is, using standard time, Frodo’s accident happens around a quarter of ten; using daylight savings time, it will happen at a quarter of eleven. (Either of which would further help explain Butterbur’s lack of irritation: not only was he looking forward to hearing the “accident” discussed in his public room for months to come, it was also near the end of the evening for most of his patrons.) |
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