04-06-2005, 07:55 PM | #61 | |
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I"m back after hosting a bridal shower and then being sick for a week
While I'm catching up on the thread, I wanted to post some info that I finally got a copy of (this is what I had mentioned to you several weeks ago, Jonathan). It addresses the oft-heard (and very unfounded, IMHO) opinion that no "real" scientist has any trouble with evolution. I had heard of something in a journal and was intrigued by it, so I called them up and got a copy of the issue. It's a two-page statement in the Weekly Standard, the October 1, 2001 issue, that about 100 scientists put in, and it goes like this: Quote:
Here are a few: Henry F. Schaefer, Nobel Nominee, Director of Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry, U. of Georgia Fred Sigworth, Prof. of Cellular & Molecular Physiology, Yale Grad. School Philip S. Skell, Emeritus Prof. of Chemistry, NAS member Frank Tipler, Prof. of Mathematical Physics, Tulane U. RObert Kaita, Plasma Physics Lab, Princeton Walter Hearn, PhD Biochemistry, U. of Illinois Dean Kenyon, Prof. Emeritus of Biology, San Francisco State Roland F. Hirsch, PhD Analytial Chemistry, U. of Michigan George Lebo, Assoc. Prof. of Astronomy, U. of Florida Timothy G. Standish, PhD Environmental Biology, George Mason U. James Keener, Prof. of Mathematics and Adjunct of Bioengineering, U. of Utah Carl Poppe, Senior Fellow, Lawrence Livermore LaboratoriesGregory Shearer, Postdoc. Researcher Internal Medicine, U.C. Davis Joseph Atkinson,PhD Organic Chemistry-M.I.T., American Chemical Society member Lawrence H. Johnson, Emeritus Prof. of Physics, U. of Idaho Marvin Fritzler, Prof. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, U. of Calgary, Medical school William S. Pelletier, Emeritus Distinguished Prof. of Chemistry, U. of Georgia Brian J. Miller, PhD Physics, Duke U. Wesley Allen, Prof. of Computational Quantum Chemistry, U. of Georgia John L. Omdahl, Prof. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, U. of New Mexico Ralph W. Seelke, Prof and Chair of Dept. of Biology and Earth Sciences, U. of Wisconsin, Superior Raymond G. Bohlin, PhD Molecular and Cell Biology, U. of Texas Rebecca W. Keller, Research Prof., Dept. of Chemistry, U. of New Mexico Bijan Nemati, Senior Engineer, Jet Propulsion Lab (NASA) Philip Savage, Prof. of Chemical Engineering, U. of Michigan Richard Sternberg, Invertebrate Zoology, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institute. Anyway, there's a few of the names. And those are only the ones that heard about this statement and signed up, and that are brave enough (like Galileo) to stand up for an unpopular opinion that they think is right.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-06-2005, 09:58 PM | #62 |
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So then what do they believe accounts for it? How many of them said that it was the work of god?
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04-06-2005, 11:33 PM | #63 |
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How many of them do NOT support evolution though and are only stating that there are flaws in evolution. from the statement you posted it doesn't say anythign about them believing in creationism - but them only saying
Are against it being "...asserted that Darwin's theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things...all known scientific evidence supports [Darwinian] evolution" as does "virtually every reputable scientist in the world." In no way does that say they don't support evolution or think that it isn't the MOST scientifically valid theory out there. They are just saying that are against it being stated that there are no problems with evolution and that evolution is 100% proven.
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04-07-2005, 02:16 AM | #64 | ||
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to explain how organisms could go from simple to complex. Then you can't know everything about everything so in every science and scientific theory, there are loopholes or even anomalies that scientists try to elucidate. Since technology develops rapidly, the scientists are often successful to explain them. However as you find answers to questions, new questions will arise. So it's likely that no scientific field will ever be comprehended to a 100%. So what I'm saying is that in biology as well as physics, chemistry, economy etc. there will always be people who don't adhere to the general ideas. Quote:
No, I guess the scientists who deal with biochemistry, cellbiology etc. are the ones who are the most interesting on that list because they should be able to really explain why they think the theory of evolution is flawed.
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04-07-2005, 01:53 PM | #65 | |
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Well I found a bit more about this mysterious list of scientists supposedly renouncing evolution. It seems it originated from the Institute for Creation Research (NOT the actual scientists as Rian implide) which back in 2001 took out full page advertisements in main stream publications like the New York Review of Books and the London review of Books and the like announcing “a scientific dissent from Darwinism”. Most of the page was taken up by the names of a hundred or so scientists who it said were 'skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life'. On the ad they agreed that “careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged”. Hardly a blasphemous thing for a scientist to say. Remember scientists unlike religionists disagree with dogma in all forms. Even scientific dogma. So this makes perfect sense. But since many creationists don’t play on the same level field of course they will attempt to use these points of view to their advantage.
The ad did NOT however include ANY arguments by ANY of these individuals. Of course many scientists would say they couldn’t fully support the original statement in the ad since they are aware of issues with evolution that havent been fully fleshed out yet. But if you were to ask them do you think evolution is a mistaken theory and creationism makes more sense guess how many scientists would sign off on that. But the creationists took this one comment and ran with it as they like to do waving it in the air and shouting “See! Well respected scientists reject evolution proving creationism!” You can find dozens and dozens of creationist web sites doing just this with this list. Looks like yet another case of manipulation to me. Furthermore, I started going through that list one by one. Right from the start I found that many of these folks describe themselves as Christians first and scientists second. Nothing wrong with that necessarily but its sneaky not to at least note that as being the case rather then acting as if religion does not enter into the picture with these folks at all. for example: Quote:
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04-07-2005, 01:56 PM | #66 |
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What Id like to see is numbers of scientists that call themselves "christian" and also say they dont believe in creationism. I bet the percentage of christian scientists who reject creationism is pretty high.
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04-07-2005, 05:54 PM | #67 | |||||||||||
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THIS is what I said : "It addresses the oft-heard (and very unfounded and unfair, IMHO) opinion that no "real" scientist has any trouble with evolution." I've heard that and seen that in print many times (the false statement that no real scientist has any problem with evolution), and it's obviously wrong. I just heard it again a few months ago when a friend of mine told me that her biology teacher at college said that. THIS is what they signed their names to: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." My goodness, the way some people react to ANYTHING at ALL said against evolution just confirms my opinion that many people hold it as a "religious" belief. I mean, why object to what I posted? I would HOPE that the reaction to what I posted would be something like "Hey, that's good to hear that some good scientists have issues with evolution! It's always important to have some dissent so we can keep an eye open for errors so we can correct them!" But no - it just seems like I can't even bring up that some good scientists are "skeptical" without some evolutionists having a hissy fit! This is a warning signal, IMO. Quote:
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Wow. Again the assumption that "religious" people can't separate their religious beliefs from the lab. I would hope that you have the SAME problem with atheists who support evolution. If not, why not? Are you proposing that anyone who is "religious" in any way be barred from a career in science? Quote:
oh wait- so what's wrong with that? I don't see anything. I find the insinuation that there's anything wrong with that beneath you, frankly. Quote:
Again, what I was trying to show is that some intelligent scientists DO have issues with Darwinian evolution. That's ALL. Why in the world aren't you glad that some intelligent scientists have issues with evolution? Isn't that for the good of science? Maybe they think evolution happened, but only have trouble with the "random mutations" part. They specifically called out "random mutations" and "natural selection". They did NOT say they didn't think evolution happened. Why do you react so strongly against this simple statement on their part? Seems like an emotional bias to me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-07-2005 at 05:57 PM. |
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04-07-2005, 06:10 PM | #68 | ||||
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"We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." And if they are highly religious then they can BELIEVE that evolution was helped by a higher being - but unless they can SCIENTIFICLY back up the statement - then it isn't science and is ONLY belief and can not be made part of the theory.
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04-07-2005, 11:08 PM | #69 | ||
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IMO that post was very relevant to the evolution thread. I never mentioned creationism at all in that post. I don't see why there's any problem with that post - I think it is very interesting, and certainly on topic (evolution), and addresses the false statement that I've heard and read before that no scientist doubts evolution at all. Quote:
I don't see what the big deal is, but I'm not surprised - in my personal experience, I find that many evolutionists vehemently support evolution and vehemently deny any type of claim against it in a very unscientific and highly emotional manner, and in such a way that makes me suspect they have serious emotional (i.e., unscientific) biases in favor of evolution. That's my experience; yours might be different.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-07-2005, 11:25 PM | #70 | |||
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04-08-2005, 02:04 AM | #71 | ||
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EDIT - and btw, I don't "twist" (except when dancing to the Beatles' "Twist and Shout")
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-08-2005 at 02:05 AM. |
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04-08-2005, 02:09 AM | #72 | |||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-08-2005, 04:06 AM | #73 | ||
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EDIT - as for the stuff you highlighted in the second paragraph - that was editorial commentary - not what the scientists said. There is another example of twisting the facts from my viewpoint.
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04-08-2005, 06:42 AM | #74 | ||||
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If this is indeed correct, it seems that everyone has this idea and there is significant evidence to, dare I say it, prove this. So then we have two ideas about this: one, that God made them in that order, and two, that some of the simple ones evolved into the complex ones we see today. Science does acknowledge that at some point, all theories have to make some assumptions. We must assume, for example, that the world came to exist somehow, and reality isn't just the figment of our collective imaginations. Including some assumptions into the theory does not make evolution a bad theory.
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04-08-2005, 03:11 PM | #75 |
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Administrative reminder: Everyone needs to remember not to make personally directed comments! Please simply comment on the post and not the poster. This is very important for keeping the threads civil. Thanks for your cooperation.
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04-08-2005, 05:52 PM | #76 | ||||||||||||||||||
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04-10-2005, 01:22 PM | #77 |
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I'm not sure what's the big deal with scientists having a disagreement or two on parts of the evolution-theory. Frankly I think I've known that for - what, a decade or so? This is rather old news. It would be new to me that scientist all over the world agreed 100% with the current evolution theory! IMO it's a bit silly trying to use this as an argument for creationism. It's not like all this is OMG-a secret evolutionists cover-up!
For those who can receive (I pressume BBC) radio 4, there is a bit on this on Tuesday the 12th at 11am (according to my BBC newsletter). The series is named Scars of evolution, presented by (the great ) David Attenborough. The series will be exploring the conflicting theories of the evolution of man. I'm hoping they will post a transcript on site afterwards as I can't receive that broadcast in Belgium.
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04-10-2005, 01:30 PM | #78 | |
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04-11-2005, 12:26 PM | #79 | |
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Beneficial mutations and natural selection are two of the most basic tenets of evolution - and these distinguished scientists "are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life." IOW, they have problems with the theory of evolution as it currently stands - they don't think the proposed mechanisms can account for the actual observed data.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-11-2005, 12:47 PM | #80 | |
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Since he asked - I will ask also - where is the FULL quote of what the scientists said. WHAT problems with evolution do they have? And as i said - Evolution deals with a process - it does not deal with whether a higher power had any hand in it. That would be outside the realm of science. IF these scientists are saying that the only way to explain the complexity of life is by god - then they are not making scientific statements and they are the ones who should be critically judged. Do you think that miracles and god should be used in science?
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