08-27-2004, 08:57 AM | #61 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Tolkien rarely, if ever, referred to Hobbits as men in LotR, I think to avoid confusion.
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He also referred to Bilbo as a gentlehobbit not a gentleman, although he does refer to a postman in Hobbiton..... I have always thought Bill Ferny was a Man - I don't know why, but as supporting evidence in addition to that already posted ..... Quote:
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08-27-2004, 10:07 AM | #62 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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And as already posted it said one of the men's surnames was Ferny.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-27-2004, 10:39 AM | #63 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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As BoP says, Merry was both a Man and a male. Check the Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits."
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08-27-2004, 11:34 PM | #64 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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it says in the prolouge that hobbits and men were connectexd a very very very very long time ago. If you believe in the theroy of evolution ( which som ehere do and some dont and I respect both sides) then apes and humans a very very very very long time ago were once connected but you would never call a monkey human. Its a monkey. Same thing for hobbits and men. They are different now. Therefore Merry contributed to the kill cause he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn cause she was female.
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08-28-2004, 02:09 AM | #65 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Finally it is all cleared up
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-28-2004, 02:59 AM | #66 | |
the Shrike
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Quote:
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08-28-2004, 03:04 AM | #67 |
the Shrike
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Reposting for the blind eedjits:
The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch** of the specifically human race......**Note, Tolkien says a branch of the human race, NOT a separate species like that of monkey compared to humans. A better comparison would be Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, which both belong in the same species.
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08-28-2004, 04:14 AM | #68 |
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Therefore they aren't humans just a branch of that race.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-28-2004, 04:46 AM | #69 |
the Shrike
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*sigh* They're a sub-branch of humans. Therefore... human. How hard can it be? They're the SAME species.
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08-28-2004, 06:22 AM | #70 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
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Sorry abotu restating what you said in my last post. I want trying to mean that I had just found that I was just restating it. Also yes well monkeys right now are another species but say you bringit back to around the dividing point. Then you could day that they are relatively the same species, they are just branches off the same line. They are at that point the same except for a few differences. Then aftera very very very long time they are so different that they are consdiered different species. I believe it is the same for Hobbits and Men. Hobbits were a long time ago a branch of men. However eventually. They grew more and more different. Eventually in LOTR you consider them a seperate species. Therefore as I said before Meerry could help kill the Witchking cuz he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn could cuz she wasnt a male.
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08-28-2004, 10:21 AM | #71 |
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Yeah for example do humans have hairy feet and grow to about 4ft tall.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-28-2004, 04:16 PM | #72 |
the Shrike
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I give up. I really do. You two can talk yerselves blue. I'm going back to the loony bin.
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08-28-2004, 04:28 PM | #73 |
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You are probably right but I have never thought of hobbits as men for some of those reasons above.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-28-2004, 10:31 PM | #74 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Nope, say it as often as you want to, Hobbits are Men. Homo sapiens sapiens. Tolkien said it, not me, and you can't unsay it. EDIT: And Men do grow 4 feet tall. The Bushmen of the Kalahari, for example. Hairy feet don't make any difference. Consider the Percheron, the Clydesdale, and the Thoroughbred.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 08-28-2004 at 10:32 PM. |
08-28-2004, 11:13 PM | #75 |
the Shrike
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*BoP returns briefly from the padded cell to give Attalus a hug*
Thank god, reinforcements arrived. Yep, the pygmies are pretty darned short, and I swear I saw hairy feet on an italian once... but they're already pretty hairy. Another consideration: Tolkien more than likely did NOT believe in the theory of evolution; so that argument is bunk anyway. (As much as it pains me, since I have a degree in anthropology....) Besides, even if Tolkien WAS buying into the ToE, well, hobbits would still be classed as Homo sapiens because he explicitly states that hobbits belong to the SAME species as Men. Monkeys don't even come into the equation at all. AS I SAID BEFORE. In the words of Tolkien, "...abormally for humans...." - post twice, ignored both times. That's it, in a NUTSHELL. IOW, Hobbits are all those traits DESPITE being human. *BoP returns to her cell, with a more than slightly maddened glint in her eye*
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08-28-2004, 11:30 PM | #76 |
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Poor BoP... she's going mad! More support on the way! (Later, when I have more time.)
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer Last edited by Meriadoc Brandybuck : 08-28-2004 at 11:32 PM. |
08-29-2004, 03:18 AM | #77 |
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Okay, I give in. Hobbits are men.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
08-29-2004, 12:18 PM | #78 | |
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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08-29-2004, 01:42 PM | #79 | |
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Quote:
To try and clarify what BoP says about races and branches: I think it is the same that with Orcs. Orc is a race that includes different branches: Goblins, hobgoblins, Orcs, Uruk-hais... In the same way, the race of Men include Hobbits and Men
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08-29-2004, 01:43 PM | #80 |
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Okay I understand now.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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