Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Thank you, but I do have a good dictionary at hand. On some of my posts I have to work hard to find the right words to express myself. I know I would have posted far more if English were my native language.

Yes, but if you gave ME a Norwegian dictionary, I'm sure the results would be very funny, as well as not make any sense! I repeat my compliment on your English.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an




What's a roadrunner? (besides the bird - I've seen several out where we used to live, really funny looking birds!)

Roadrunner is a high speed on line motem through Time Warner Cable and America On Line. Very fast, when the darn thing works.

Do you like the bronzy red/orange-mixed-in-with-golden hair idea? I think it would look pretty cool!

No I don't really. I can't picture Aegnor looking like that. If he had the golden hair of the Vanyar as did Finrod and Galadriel, it is too beautiful to ruin with such a silly description.

[Rían]

One of my best friends is a redhead I think it might look pretty neat with some nice reddish strands mixed in the golden hair (tastefully done, not like some punk rocker )

What do you think of the sections after the Athrabeth proper? "The tale of Adanel" is pretty dark, isn't it?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I'm a M.Sc. in Engineering Cybernetics, but at present I work solely with Software Engineering. My husband is a radar-guy, he is an employee in a company working with ground-penetrating radars.

What does the radar look for? Oil? Balrogs? Sister Golden Hair in the underground caves of Nargothrond? (WATCH OUT, SGH!)
(p.s. - I'm working on a military air traffic control radar project right now. He must use some unusual frequencies.)

Have you read through all of the notes after the Athrabeth yet? Opinions?

[Sister Golden Hair]

What does the radar look for? Oil? Balrogs? Sister Golden Hair in the underground caves of Nargothrond? (WATCH OUT, SGH!)

Ah, I'm not too worried. My King will take care of business.


I will comment on your question concerning Adanel sometime tomarrow. It has been a long time since I have read that and the notes following the Athrabeth. Will have to do a refresher before I can discuss it. Can't read tonight cause of a splitting headache. OOPS! Elves didn't get headaches, did they?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Ah, I'm not too worried. My King will take care of business.

What a STUDMUFFIN!

Can't read tonight cause of a splitting headache. OOPS! Elves didn't get headaches, did they?

I'm telling ya, it's the radar signals! Artanis, tell your husband to turn it off, it's giving SGH a headache! (Hope you feel better soon - headaches are miserable )

p.s. - Artanis, what is Engineering Cybernetics?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What do you think of the sections after the Athrabeth proper? "The tale of Adanel" is pretty dark, isn't it?

The Athrabeth and the notes and comments gave me disturbing associations to Christianity, Adam and Eve and their expulsion from Paradise. More about this later, I really should be working now...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What does the radar look for? Oil? Balrogs? Sister Golden Hair in the underground caves of Nargothrond? (WATCH OUT, SGH!)

LOL!

I'm telling ya, it's the radar signals!

Could be, since Beleriand is buried beneath the ocean now, and they might be looking for oil or nature gas there today
To be serious gprs are used for various purposes; to find if there are oil or gas in the ground, and how much, to look for buried people after an avalanche or slide, to check whether the ground is stable and safe before huge buildings are placed there, to name a few.

p.s. - Artanis, what is Engineering Cybernetics?

This is from my university: ntnu - Department of Engineering Cybernetics. Hope this explains.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What do you think of the sections after the Athrabeth proper? "The tale of Adanel" is pretty dark, isn't it?

It sure is gloomy. I think there are some references to Christianity here, like Men's desire for (godlike?) knowledge and power to 'order things to our will', the temptation to oppose against their creator, which eventually led to their fall. Then there is their punishment; to be expelled from paradise and eternal life.

And perhaps the most obvious thing, which is not in the final Athrabeth text or Adanel's tale, only in the Commentary: Finrod's vision that Eru, to heal Arda from the Marring, will descend into the world incarnated in human form. And further, Eru must enter into the world, but not wholly, He must also always remain outside. It is impossible not to think of Jesus Christ when reading this, him being son of God in human form, sent to the earth to save us from evil. And also Christianity says God and Jesus (and the Holy Ghost) are One, God is thus able to be both inside the world, as Jesus, and outside, as God.

Your comments on this please? It is clear that Tolkien himself saw the similarities, and I don't think he was too happy with them.

[markedel]

What do you mean by unhappy? Tolkien didn't want to put explicit christian refrences into Middle Earth,, or so my understanding goes. But that didn't mean he didn't believe in christian theology.

[Rían]

Originally posted by markedel
What do you mean by unhappy? Tolkien didn't want to put explicit christian refrences into Middle Earth,, or so my understanding goes. But that didn't mean he didn't believe in christian theology.

I don't think that's what she meant (that "he didn't believe in christian theology"), but Artanis, I'm not quite sure what your last sentence did mean. Have you read the Athrabeth and its commentary in Morgoth's Ring, markedel?

I have been thinking about this section ever since I first read it several months ago. These 60-some pages of Athrabeth and its commentaries are so - I don't know, intense I suppose - an incredibly tragic and beautiful love story (I absolutely cannot read the last 5 paragraphs of the Athrabeth without tears coming into my eyes), a wonderful representation of the meeting of 2 people from different races that care for each other and are trying to understand each other, and then the "Tale of Adanel" section - that it's hard to write about them (and I can't even fathom trying to write about them in a non-native language, as Artanis is doing so well!).

Artanis, I really like what you expressed in your post -

"I think there are some references to Christianity here, like Men's desire for (godlike?) knowledge and power to 'order things to our will', the temptation to oppose against their creator, which eventually led to their fall. "

- and I agree with it.

Also,

"Finrod's vision that Eru, to heal Arda from the Marring, will descend into the world incarnated in human form. And further, Eru must enter into the world, but not wholly, He must also always remain outside. It is impossible not to think of Jesus Christ when reading this, him being son of God in human form, sent to the earth to save us from evil. And also Christianity says God and Jesus (and the Holy Ghost) are One, God is thus able to be both inside the world, as Jesus, and outside, as God."

- The first time I read that section about Eru having to actually enter into Arda to save it, it just blew me away. It was expressing something that I believe, but in the eyes of a person from another race (Fingon of the elves), in such a way that it gave me a whole new perception of Jesus coming into the world. Tolkien always said that he disliked allegory, but liked myth, and that myth expressed truths, and that Christianity was the completely true myth (this is only my rough rewording of Tolkien's thoughts - I'll try to get some quotes from his letters later on). There are such deep thoughts here that it is hard for me to find words to express my thoughts. This thread is not exactly like the "Are Tacos supposed to bounce, and other horror stories from the school cafeteria" thread (which, BTW, is lots of fun ) over in the General Messages forum, and I cannot post here quickly or lightly. This is probably enough for tonight. I look forward to your responses!

[Rían]

p.s. - it's fun to know what time zones you ladies are in, SGH and Artanis! I can picture you two snoozing away right now as I struggle to put some some of my thoughts into typewritten words. I usually check for your replies first thing in the morning, as you two see the sun before I do, and might have typed in a post while I am sleeping!

p.p.s. - and then in the middle of all this profound discussion, up pops the flaming hair controversy and poor SGH getting zapped in her underground digs by Artanis' husband's radar! (what a great use for that radar, though - helping to find avalanche victims). And thanks for the Engineering Cybernetics link, Artanis - it was interesting. Kind of a cross between Mechanical and Electrical engineering, with lots of computers thrown in, too.

p.p.p.s. - what I meant by "dark" was the amazing way in which Tolkien's style radically changed in this story - from cozy but sad fireside chat between Finrod and Andreth to a really terrifying and formal depiction of very frightened people dealing with a very powerful being. What an incredible writer he was!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ok ladies, I didn't get a chance to even hardly visit the board yesterday, but I am off right now to do my refresher reading, since the radar signals have stopped and the headache is gone. Be back after while with my two cents. Shouldn't take long.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I don't think that's what she meant (that "he didn't believe in christian theology"), but Artanis, I'm not quite sure what your last sentence did mean.

I was referring to what Tolkien once wrote about the Athrabeth:

Already it is (if inevitably) too like a parody of Christianity.

and Christopher's comments on this:

Obviously, he was not referring to the legends of the Fall: he was saying clearly that the introduction of such a legend would make 'it' - presumably, the Athrabeth - altogether into 'a parody of Christianity'.

In letter no. 131, Tolkien also wrote:

Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth, but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world.

It is interesting to see from the different manuscripts how the story developed in Tolkien's mind over the years. It seems he was worried about the Athrabeth, that it, together with Adanel's tale, was becoming too close to the 'real' world.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Tale of Adanel is a dark one, and a sad one. I get the impression that the second voice was more impressive then the first, and it seems that Men were in their beginning and at a vulnerable point because of their lack of knowledge. Morgoth appears to take advantage of this and men relenting to the second voice angers Illuvatar, and this is why they had death imposed upon them, by Illuvatar. This is only the reckoning of Men though, which would undo what Illuvatar had given them as a gift and is now really a curse. IMO, this would seem to be a cruel move by Illuvatar if that were the case, because they (Men) really could not be held accountable for their mistaken choice of the voices at that time sinse they were ignorrant, however, it does show their weakness to temptation and their greed.

Concerning the discussion of Illuvatar entering into Arda to heal it, I do not really see this as a Christian connection, although it may well be. I see it exactly as Finrod said when he used the example of the author. The authur is outside, but he is also inside, not in any physical form but his heart and mind exist inside the creation of the story itself. If you think about applying this in a Christian way, then it is flawed. Yes God was outside and Jesus came into the world, and they are one being in different and seperate forms, but that instance would not be the only time god ever entered into the world or appeared to someone, and has he not also been in communication with agents in the world without entering into it himself? This creation of Tolkien's is heavy guys.

[Earniel]

The authur is outside, but he is also inside, not in any physical form but his heart and mind exist inside the creation of the story itself.

That is very beautifully put.

Gah, I MUST get myself Morgoth's Ring!

[Artanis]

SGH, glad you're back! And my husband didn't turn of the signals, he just changed the frequency He's still watching you!

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair I see it exactly as Finrod said when he used the example of the author. The authur is outside, but he is also inside, not in any physical form but his heart and mind exist inside the creation of the story itself.

I really liked this example, it was beautifully expressed by Finrod.

Yes God was outside and Jesus came into the world, and they are one being in different and seperate forms, but that instance would not be the only time god ever entered into the world or appeared to someone, and has he not also been in communication with agents in the world without entering into it himself?

But Eru also communicated with the Valar, mainly Manwe. And according to the tale of Adanel he appeared to Men to guide them after their creation, if only as a voice in their heart.

I'm not saying Tolkien tried to express his Christian beliefs through his tales, I haven't learned enough of his authorship to say anything of the sort. But I do find similarities concerning the Fall of Men as seen in the Athrabeth and Adanel's tale, and Christianity. And i do find it interesting and thought provoking.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I have no doubt that some of Tolkien's own Christian beliefs did not spill over into his works. It was a great part of his being. He himself denies any allegory being involved, but it may actually be set there unintentionally by him.

[Artanis]

This is fun, I get answers only minutes after posting! My reward for staying up so late.

I think you may be right about Tolkien putting Christian allegories into his stories unintentionally. It must be hard to keep your life and belief separated from your work of art.

[Rían]

OK, now I'VE got the headache! Really enjoyable posts, but I'm too tired to respond properly - just popped in to say "HI" and ask Artanis what time zone she is in (GMT +/- how many hrs) - trying to figure out how late you were up