Theism

[Twilight]

Yes, I do believe that the good will always outweigh the bad. I take my own life as an example of that. I was raised in a practising Christian family, but we were a disfunctional family. We all had serious problems with depression, and we all didn't get along. None of us had any kind of social life, so we were all trapped in the same house together. We decided to take our problems out on each other. I came home for spring break, and there were times when I was very much afraid for my physical safety. The depression has lasted so long that I didn't know anything else. I am slowly being able to see beyond that. I constanly wonder why God put me in a family like that. Why did so many bad things happen to me during my childhood. Why was I forced to live this pitiful existance. I still have problems ocaisionally, but I have been getting over them. The biggest thing is why was that horrble past allowed to happen because no person should have to go through what I did. I survived through it. I may be scared for life as a result, but I survived sane (relatively speaking) and with my faith intact. I have found that my experiences with depression now allow me to help others because I have faced so many differant bad things that I usually have something in common with a person that is having a problem. I have helped several people to get over their depression. My bad experience is now being used to help others, and I can see the abundant good that is coming from it.

Sometimes you have to look really hard, and other times it is beyond our grasp and we have to use faith to believe that something good has come from a situation.

[Darth Tater]

I "push segregation" because I don't want this to turn ugly and I don't trust you people.

[afro-elf]

Your articulation of these matters is more lucid than my own at the moment

could you reply to the following if you so please


Originally posted by Wayfarer
I'm not going to get into another foolish and pointless arguement., so I'll keep this breif.

Argument 1: The proof is in the pudding.

I have known too many christians (I must narrow this down-Real Christians. Not professing/intellectual christians) who's lives have radically altered as a result of thier commitment to write it off. Furthermore, despite the vastly different backgrounds and circumstances, we've all changed in very similar ways.

Argument 2: Logicality.

I can't phrase this nearly as well as I want to. But it's next to impossible to justify an atheistic viewpoint. The universe existing on it's own just doesn't make sense. I suppose I could quote you the law of causality: Everything that has a beginning must have a cause. A steady state universe is also highly unlikely.

I could put it like this: Everything that we see and know operates under the same set of natural parameters. The law of causality above is one. Therefore, if it is impossible for the natural system to create itself, we must look somewhere else. The supernatural.

Order cannot arise from chaos. Therefore, all order must ultimately result from a preexisting order, and ultimately you must come to some ordered system that is absolute-it just is.

You must ultimately come back to God.
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[Arathorn]

Originally posted by Anduril

b. If I believe in and strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely mistaken, and I will be doomed to the "hell" of the one true religion, if it exists. Forgot about that, didn't you?
d. if I do not believe in nor strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely correct, and I will be doomed to the "hell" of the one true religion, if it exists. It seems you have factored out all the other religions somehow. Clearly this
wager is more complex than you have stated. Also, it seems that fear is the motive behind this belief - you are afraid of eternal damnation, so you'd rather play it safe and believe.

I have already stated earlier that I was raised in my present religion and am so compelled to be biased towards it. Logical or not, that is what I am inclined to believe. I have not forgotten about the other religions. I also stated that the other monotheist religions and the one I believe in are merely fighting over details and believe in the same supreme being.

Also, I have stated that I believe and hope that my inadequate faith shall give me a chance at purgatory, at least. It is temporary "hell" by which ony the living may pray for me to be forgiven for such inadequacy and I pray as well for those who have gone ahead.

And yes, fear is a motivating factor. There are others but I tire easily in discussing them for I am not as good a scholar as others nor am as zealous. That is why I envy those who believe with or without fear. On the other hand, I find less reason to "not believe".

regarding the your 2nd and 3rd quotes on me. I am sorry to have made it appear as a generalization. I was thinking out loud about myself. Whether logical or not, it is just me.

On your last question, I base that assumption on the fact that all these "mono"theistic religions believe in one supreme being.

But very well then. You may conclude that many of my beliefs are based on flawed assumptions. I don't. However, I tire easily on questions of religion. I only replied to answer what I believe in, and if it does not convince you, then I am sorry for taking too much of your time. Hopefully, someone else can help you better to find what you are looking for, if indeed you are.

My hope is, that I increase mine and acutally do something about it to follow His Will. Again, Blessed are those who believe without seeing.

[Lief Erikson]

Christianity is improbable scientifically, there's no way of getting around that. And God allowed it to be improbable, for in the Bible it clearly states that a large part of our belief comes from believing in things unseen. If we could see these things, or if we could prove Christianity, then where would be the faith?

And again, I must disagree with all statements that miracles are decreasing in number nowadays. The Bible spans many years, talking about many different people and miracles that God has worked through them. Miracles happen now just as often, in my opinion, although my Dad thinks they might possibly be happening more frequently. We don't have new Bible now which is a collection, but there are many books out which tell how God is working. God has performed many in my life, even though I have only known him a few months, and there are other Christians all over the globe who aren't necessarily speaking up that these miracles have happened. These things are frequently of a very personal nature, and besides, it says in Corinthians that things which are spiritual or of God are madness to the unbeliever, or something to that effect. Of that we have proof. Certainly all of it is scientifically impossible, but if it were possible, than it wouldn't be a miracle, would it? Science simply doesn't know everything, and how can it claim knowledge of something so completely different? Can science delve into the spiritual? Can it prove or disprove spiritual beings?

I must concur with the statement that it is impossible to prove or disprove, but is a matter of belief.

I acknowledge that there certainly are times in the past when people have made mistakes, or made assumptions of things they can't understand. People have worshiped the stars, moon and sun, and all nature for a long time. People have certainly assumed things or decided that things are miracles which aren't, because they can't explain it. A volcano or tidal wave for example, an earthquake or a fluke of nature. The Northern Lights I can easily understand people of ancient times considering to have meaning beyond simple nature.


On the matter of whether or not God changes every situation for the good which was bad, this requires faith. You would have to look from the eternal perspective, for God sees what will come after as well as what has come before. In the Bible the situation is mentioned where the man Lazarus is mistreated all his life, and then he dies without getting any help or the situation turning to the good in the life on earth. In heaven however, that suffering is nothing next to the glory and joy which he experiences. Perhaps what happens on the earth is unjust, cruel and evil, and there seems no reason for it. Paul suffered more on earth than hardly any other Christians, but he counted all of it nothing next to what was waiting for him in heaven. What about the nonchristian who is mistreated in this way? This issue is up to the Lord, and he is just.


Certainly there are people who are raised with a Christian background but then turn away from their belief in Christ. God gave people choice and minds of their own; they can choose therefore what path they take in life. Plus, there is a difference between believing in God and knowing him. There is a large distinction between the two, and knowing God doesn't come simply from being raised in a Christian family. It comes from prayer, and when God knows that you're serious and really want to know him, he will reveal himself to you. There are many Christians who simply believe, and there are many more who actually know him.

[Lief Erikson]

Christianity is improbable scientifically, there's no way of getting around that. And God allowed it to be improbable, for in the Bible it clearly states that a large part of our belief comes from believing in things unseen. If we could see these things, or if we could prove Christianity, then where would be the faith?

And again, I must disagree with all statements that miracles are decreasing in number nowadays. The Bible spans many years, talking about many different people and miracles that God has worked through them. Miracles happen now just as often, in my opinion, although my Dad thinks they might possibly be happening more frequently. We don't have new Bible now which is a collection, but there are many books out which tell how God is working. God has performed many in my life, even though I have only known him a few months, and there are other Christians all over the globe who aren't necessarily speaking up that these miracles have happened. These things are frequently of a very personal nature, and besides, it says in Corinthians that things which are spiritual or of God are madness to the unbeliever, or something to that effect. Of that we have proof. Certainly all of it is scientifically impossible, but if it were possible, than it wouldn't be a miracle, would it? Science simply doesn't know everything, and how can it claim knowledge of something so completely different? Can science delve into the spiritual? Can it prove or disprove spiritual beings?

I must concur with the statement that it is impossible to prove or disprove, but is a matter of belief.

I acknowledge that there certainly are times in the past when people have made mistakes, or made assumptions of things they can't understand. People have worshiped the stars, moon and sun, and all nature for a long time. People have certainly assumed things or decided that things are miracles which aren't, because they can't explain it. A volcano or tidal wave for example, an earthquake or a fluke of nature. The Northern Lights I can easily understand people of ancient times considering to have meaning beyond simple nature.


On the matter of whether or not God changes every situation for the good which was bad, this requires faith. You would have to look from the eternal perspective, for God sees what will come after as well as what has come before. In the Bible the situation is mentioned where the man Lazarus is mistreated all his life, and then he dies without getting any help or the situation turning to the good in the life on earth. In heaven however, that suffering is nothing next to the glory and joy which he experiences. Perhaps what happens on the earth is unjust, cruel and evil, and there seems no reason for it. Paul suffered more on earth than hardly any other Christians, but he counted all of it nothing next to what was waiting for him in heaven. What about the nonchristian who is mistreated in this way? This issue is up to the Lord, and he is just.


Certainly there are people who are raised with a Christian background but then turn away from their belief in Christ. God gave people choice and minds of their own; they can choose therefore what path they take in life. Plus, there is a difference between believing in God and knowing him. There is a large distinction between the two, and knowing God doesn't come simply from being raised in a Christian family. It comes from prayer, and when God knows that you're serious and really want to know him, he will reveal himself to you. There are many Christians who simply believe, and there are many more who actually know him.

[Andúril]

Afro-elf, as you saw from my last post I did bring up some issues from Wayfarer's post, and I am awaiting his commentary.

Thank you for your kind words I always strive to express myself as clearly as possible, and I am glad at least one person has noticed it.

[BeardofPants]

quote:
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If you were taught about him all your life, you have faith in that.
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Not necessarily. I had christian beliefs when I was young, and went to church til the age of 11; it was when I started High School that I began to question the 'holes' in the bible, and the belief system. Now I follow an anthropological belief system. Remeber, christian Dogma predicted the world as only 6000 years old (4004 BC, October, 9am). This was based on evaluation of geneology of biblical figureheads. Now we KNOW beyond reasonable doubt, that the earth is billions of years old, and that Homo sapiens are thousands of years old, hominids (that is, species that proceed H. sapiens, ie Australopithecus afarensis), are at least 4 million years old, although there are possible earlier hominids. How does that figure into a creationist view? UNLESS God created Man in his own image, and God as a being, is constantly changing? This is the only term, on which I can accept that there may have been a creationist view. However, the probability of that occuring, is very low. Although the early fossil record is sparse, and there is no 'proof' in how life began scientifically, from protozoids onwards, we do have a geological, and archaeological record. This is what I base my arguments on. For me, faith is not enough. Faith has a tendencey to blind people to what is going on in the world, and it has also caused so many wars, and suffering, that I don't want to be a part of that system. Off the top of my head, The Spanish Inquisition, and the crusades, not to mention the Salem witch trials. Even today, people are being persecuted for their religion, or non-religion.

Also, I don't like how a fundemental part of religious dogma is to convert people. I can understand how some find happiness in their beliefs and want to share them, however, it does get irritating after a while; especially when we get evangelists on my uni campus, telling us that we are all going to hell for OUR beliefs! Personally, I am more than happy to accomodate for religious beliefs, but I believe that it is a personal journey, between yourself and God, not everyone else, and especially not your Atheist friends, and associates. Besides, if it is the one true way (or, one among a choice of true beliefs, since there is only one God - but many religions, including the panatheistic ones), then the LOST will eventually find their path. If God really exists, and he is a loving being, then he will find a shepherd to find the lost ones - and before I get flamed, and people point out Jesus, I would just like to say, that there is growing evidence, that Jesus was no more than a prophet, and that he had a wife and kids. But I digress, if there is a God, and he is as you say, a loving god, then logically, no one is going to hell, because he will forgive all sins, and shepherd the lost, in the valley of darkness, so to speak. Therefore, since I have not been 'found' by this God(s), then logic dictates that he can not exist.

'Nuff said. Please remember, these are my views, and that I am not going to be converted, nor am I trying to convert the masses. Thank you.

[Nibs]

Anduril hasn't gored (I use that word loosely here) any of my statements yet! I must be doing very well indeed.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Remeber, christian Dogma predicted the world as only 6000 years old

Not from how I understand it, anyway... the Bible doesn't clearly say how long it took to create the world nor how long they waited afterwards to place man upon it. That's one of the "holes" you spoke of, but this one could sufficiently disprove your statement.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
maybe i just don't believe in christianity. too much hypocracy in christianity for it to be representative of gods will.

Good, sound reasoning. However, once a servant of the Lord drifts into hypocrisy, he no longer represents God's will. Hypocrisy was never sanctioned by God. Condemned, even.

Wow, you people bounce all over the place. As far as I can ascertain, the skeptics posting here have a problem with this single concept (though I could be very wrong indeed): faith. Not to brand any among you evil or anything of the like... it's truly a confusing subject.
"Why aren't you carnal or sensual?"
"Because God said not to."
"Have you ever seen him?"
"No."

I admit it's perplexing, but I can personally attest to the benefits of believing that God exists and sent His Son to atone for our sins, if we would allow him through repentance.

[crickhollow]

I'm tired of doctrine, apologetics, and arguments. My head is spinning from reading all the posts in this thread and the other. The Christian faith never made as much sense to me as it did when a friend told me what I'm going to tell you. It's not off a script or anything, but I'm a visual person, and as such, props make things like this easier to understand. So feel free to grab your watch and a clean handkerchief or somehting and follow along. The gospel, clear and simple, with no apologies:

Let's say the your left hand represents you and me and everyone in the world. The pen that you am holding represents sin. (do you know what sin is? It's what offends God) Now everyone has sin, and no one know how to get rid of it. Some of us try to cover up our sin by going to church, tithing, contributing to a save the whales fund, or wearing a sacred tie. (cover your left hand and pen with the hankie) the truth is, this doesn't get rid of the sin, it merely covers it up. Like white frosting on a burnt cake. The bad new is that this sin condemns us to hell.

The good news is that your right hand represents Jesus Christ, who was and is God. He took our sin on himself (take pen from left hand to right), died a horrible, tortuous death, got rid of that sin (go ahead and toss that pen over your shoulder, put it back in your pencil can, or whatever), and now he's in heaven, waiting for us to join him.

Now here's the question that it ultimately comes down to: Would you trust Christ to the best of your ability to help you lead your life here on earth, and to take you to heaven when you die?

[BeardofPants]

ARgh, its not letting me quote...

"Not from how I understand it, anyway... the Bible doesn't clearly say how long it took to create the world nor how long they waited afterwards to place man upon it. That's one of the "holes" you spoke of, but this one could sufficiently disprove your statement. " - Nibs.

Again, I will just point to the fossil record. No, the bible doesn't say how long it took to create the world, but, and I quote,

"In 1650 Archbishop James Ussher calculated its age by adding up the ages of people and reigns of kings in the Old Testament; he concluded that Creation had happened 4000 years before Jesus's birth."

Since we know that the earth has existed for billions of years, and we have to fossil record to back this up: including at least 4 million years of evolving hominids (according to evolutionary theory), then how do you factor in Gods family tree according to James Ussher? Which expressly states that human life began 6000 years ago?

[Nibs]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
No, the bible doesn't say how long it took to create the world, but, and I quote,

"In 1650 Archbishop James Ussher calculated its age by adding up the ages of people and reigns of kings in the Old Testament; he concluded that Creation had happened 4000 years before Jesus's birth."

Hmm... now I ask you, are you sure he was referring to the creation of the world, or of man, or both? Mind you, they didn't have that gap that science has wedged between that theory. Therefore, it wouldn't have crossed his mind. But, since it doesn't specify in the Bible itself, why should I be asked to clarify someone's 351 year-old statement when I obviously disagreed with that theory in the first place?

[MasterMothra]

after reading the posts, i think nibs summed it up the best. faith is the variable here. for me , i think i believe there is a god. unlike crickhollow though, i don't think jesus is the only way to god. i'm not sure if i understand what jesus's purpose was at all. if people were going to heaven b/f jesus was on earth, why did jesus need to save us from sin? we could just repent and have salvation, no jesus necessary.

am i missing something?

[BeardofPants]

Good point! However, I was just trying to clarify that the hole you mentioned, is not really a hole, for the sake of argument, since there is a fossil recored that dates back billions of years. My point is, that while I know that science doesn't know all the answers, in analysing the record, it does strive to. And there is a huge time frame to try and understand. Creationists argue this fallacy, as science not knowing the answer, and that they never will. However, I believe, that given the time, and the right information, science can answer these questions.

But then, we're just going to be at logger-heads over this until Kingdom Come! No matter, really, because at the end of the day, Atheists want the same things as creationists, a beautiful world to live in, and unconditional love. What does it matter whether our belief systems are completely different?

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
after reading the posts, i think nibs summed it up the best. faith is the variable here. for me , i think i believe there is a god. unlike crickhollow though, i don't think jesus is the only way to god. i'm not sure if i understand what jesus's purpose was at all. if people were going to heaven b/f jesus was on earth, why did jesus need to save us from sin? we could just repent and have salvation, no jesus necessary.

am i missing something?

Yes. A sacrifice. Our sin makes us dirty; no filth allowed in heaven. Death is required as the penalty of sin. Check out Hebrews 9, especially verses 13 and 14: "The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are cermonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from actst that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"

Jesus came as the last sacrifice. End of Hebrews 4: "14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

Apologies for the long quotations; I put them in in case you don't have a Bible handy, in which case a reference doesn't do a whole lot of good

Do I make sense now?

[Nibs]

Your last two sentences made me all fuzzy inside, BeardofPants... too true, beyond words.

And thank you, Mothra. I hope I don't appear condescending or manipulative of anything. I just feel so guided in my life and only want to share that. I'll answer your question in a bit; I have some pressing business .

[Earniel]

Evolution and fossils are facts. It's very hard to ignore them or refuse to regard them as real. But science still has not all he answers and it has just as religion a few holes. I remember a lengthy debate with a friend on the scientific evolution and how God would fit in. I was adamant that God had no part to play in. She said he did. We went from now to millions of years ago, nearly discussing every stage of evolution. And as I was explaining that all life started from proto-matter she asked: "how?". I said, "Well we don't know that yet." She said then, "Then how you know it wasn't God that sparked life on earth? What used to be miracles is now nearly all scientificly explained. But science hasn't all the answers. And until it does, let it be God. Who says that God isn't science?" I had no reply, one of the only times that ever happened to me. It was after this conversation I changed my rather hard atheist views in more tolerant agnostic views.

Religion and science are tricky things to discuss, because of the both of them we cannot see the end. The thing is it isn't this or the other. They might be both right or they might be both wrong. And both of them may turn out as the same thing.

Now did this make any sense? I'm not used to long posts, makes tangling all too easy.

[Laurenis]

ok but rnt u saying that ther is a god because that answers all the questions about the beginning of everything and the world etc, but surely if ur saying that to answer questions what about the question that what ure saying creates; why is there a god? where did god come from? ur just answering a question with another question so nothing is being solved.

[BeardofPants]

Am I the only one who didn't understand what she said??? You could be right, God could have created the spark that started life, and I haven't said that evolution and god, can't co-exist, on one of my earlier threads I said it was possible. However, I believe that there is no probability, based on the current evidence that God exists. It all comes down to choice. Faith versus Logic, and humans have been granted the sentience - via God, or Evolution, to make this choice. Really, these arguments are futile, you can't out-logic, or out-faith a person into believing: humans just aren't that inter-changeable when it comes to their belief systems!

[Earniel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Am I the only one who didn't understand what she said???

Once again, I just can't seem to write something intelligible, sigh when will I learn?

Originally posted by BeardofPants
You could be right, God could have created the spark that started life, and I haven't said that evolution and god, can't co-exist, on one of my earlier threads I said it was possible.[/B]

I wasn't doubting your words. I was trying to add something. Obviously I failed to express my idea properly. So just, please forget whatever I posted.