Theology III

[Glóin the Dark]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Actually, it does make a difference. 10, 100 or 1000 are used in scripture as metaphors for eternity. The fact that factoring from 10 is usually most useful and easy for humans in mathematics is also significant.

"Factoring from 10" isn't easier for someone working in base thirty-three. I would maintain that base ten has no inherent significance which makes it logically preferable to any other base; it is simply a cultural "accident" that our civilisation has developed the decimal system for denoting numbers.

If you are suggesting that use in the Bible of certain powers of 10 as metaphors for eternity (although I'm wracking my brains to think of what the resemblance might be!) implies that there is a god who has a special penchant for decimal notation, then the connection is has a tiny iota more substance, but is still extremely tenuous. The alleged deity could have made his mark on mathematics more convincingly by arranging the universe so that pi would be precisely 3, yielding a neat depiction of the Trinity-Unity set-up in the simple expression "3 : 1" - the ratio of the length of the circumference of a circle to that of its radius* - thereby avoiding the need for us to get lucky in our choice of base. It would also eliminate the extra digits "415926..." whose role we haven't been able to suss out, and which might just be random junk after all, in which case pi could have been any one of infinitely many numbers (those less than three-and-a-fifth but not three-and-a-tenth) and still achieved the same theological significance.

But the first digits are the first, and that very fact gives them more immediate significance.

Similarly, the first three digits are first, so your assertion awards them more immediate significance. 3, 1, 4. What does this mean? Okay, perhaps theology can't or doesn't feel the need to stretch as far as three digits. Or, on the other hand, perhaps it's just a pure coincidence that the first two digits match up with a pair of numbers regarded as significant in certain aspects of Christian theology. Indeed, a randomly picked number has a one in forty-five chance that the first two digits of its decimal representation will be "1" and "3".

If you want to get gritty in arguing about this point, I could even mention that Jesus said of himself, "I am the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega."

I'd like to know what precisely you mean by this. As grittily as you like!

True, but this frequency of occurrence doesn't eliminate the symbolism.

The symbolism of what? We were talking about pi, not just numbers in general. Say I've got another number called "pizza" which starts "3.17255042638..." and continues forever without discernible pattern. Does it also symbolise the notion that nobody can reach eternity without the assistance of some mindbendingly coalesced trio?

Just as the first numbers are significant because they are first, this appearance in the standard representation of pi is also significant because it is standard, the norm.

The norm to us. But what about the twenty-one fingered inhabitants of a far off planet for whom the normal representation of pi begins "3.2..."? Are their theologians muttering that it's a pity there wasn't a "1" there because that would be nice and symbolic? Or have they modified their outlook to postulate a deity consisting of "Three Persons in Two Gods"?

Edit: *Er, I meant diameter...

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

[smartarse]Do you mean Pi?[/smartarse]

Reminds me of the old Bill Cosby routine about trying to get the college football player through math class.

Math Profesor " Explain Pi r square"
Football player: "Ha, you can't fool me. Pie are round."

[GrayMouser]

Old Zen story:

An Insolent Wayfarer
In ancient times it was customary for a traveling monk seeking lodging at a Zen monastery to engage in dharma combat with the abbot or head monk. If the wayfarer won the debate, he could stay; if not, he had to seek quarters elsewhere.
Once a master who was ill assigned his attendant to engage in such an encounter with a traveling monk, who challenged him to a silent debate. It so happened that this attendant, who was a crude and ignorant fellow, had but one eye.

Soon the wayfarer returned to the master, saying, "Your man is too good for me. I must journey on. I held up one finger to symbolize the Buddha. But he held up two fingers for the Buddha and the Dharma. So I held up three fingers for the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. But then he held up a clenched fist to indicate they were all one - so I ran to indicate I am no match for him."

When the traveler who spoke these words left, the attendant arrived - angry and out of breath. "Where is that rascal?" he demanded. "First, he insulted me by holding up one finger to indicate I had only one eye. Determined to be polite in spite of that, I held up two fingers to indicate that, on the other hand, he was blessed with two eyes. But he just kept rubbing it in, for next he held up three fingers to indicate that all together there were only three eyes among us. So I made a fist and went to hit him and he ran off! Where is he hiding?"

[Coffeehouse]

Funny

[Tessar]

Coffeehouse for the effective purpose of a debate, right now this appears to be extremely unbalanced since it looks like you're just coming up with similar question after similar question for the sake of having Lief write you a reply that's 10x its length.

I don't agree with many of the things that Lief says, but you're attacking things that are not stated. For instance just to touch on one, what does the economic state of China have to do with the bible? As I recall the bible talks a lot about spiritual wealth, but never promises you heaps of gold and diamonds .

The constitution of the USA also states that men are equal. It does not force the wealthy to give all of their money out so that everyone has exactly the same amount of money. It's talking about a different kind of equality.


There are other things I could get into, but I wont because I am not a debater. However, I gotta say I don't think it's particularly great how you're treating Lief. This is less a debate and more like you're trying to interrogate him without putting out much effort yourself to explain your actual view point on the subject.

This is nothing to do with me being a mod, before someone raises the hue and cry--I'm not threatening anyone with bannings or saying you can't do what you're doing. I'm saying that I believe you should reconsider the way in which you are structuring your argument at the moment.

[Nautipus]

Tessar- I agree.

Coffeehouse- While Lief's responses are entertaining, consise, and articulated, it doesnt meant that you arent allowed. Please, share some of your own beliefs for us, it would definately be a topic I would like to see discussed.

Lief- good points my firend. A very insightful read, I must say.

[Lief Erikson]

Coffeehouse, like Tessar and Nautipus, I too am eager to hear more about your own personal religious (or non-religious) views, and on what evidence or reasoning they are based.



I'm very glad you enjoyed my posts, Nautipus .

[Coffeehouse]

It's entirely up to Lief to answer my questions. If a 4-paragraph answer is what he would like to use every time.. If he feels that they are questions he doesn't want to answer, then let him decide that for himself. I'm sure he does not need defending. The questions I am posing I feel are relevant, and if he can't see the revelance he can choose not to answer.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Coffeehouse, like Tessar and Nautipus, I too am eager to hear more about your own personal religious (or non-religious) views, and on what evidence or reasoning they are based.



I'm very glad you enjoyed my posts, Nautipus .

As for my view of the world, it's clear, and honest.

In my view the world is exactly what it appears to be, based on everything my senses tell me, and everyway nature interacts with us, that there is no hocus pocus, no fairy tale magical beings floating here and there, always hidden, never being especially constructive.

I believe the reason humans believe in gods and ghosts is multi-layered, but it is only a figment of the imagination. It's a device and it's a solution. The idea of a God is comforting, an all-powerful God that watches over us for all eternity. A God that can welcome us to heaven when we die. It's a comfort, and a clinging on.
Nobody wants things to end completely, the last ending. In my opinion, because nothing whatsoever seems to point in any other direction, death is the end. After it, there is nothing. The body is dead, the brain is dead, it's decomposing and millions of tiny creatures use the leftovers from the body, and the earth swallows whole the body and so it continues. Death spurs life.
And it's a mind-opening choice to make, not to believe in afterlife, because it's nod to the fact that someday it'll all end and my own body will just lie there, until it is completely gone, and that after the light goes out it will stay dark.
But that is why life is so fantastic, so unique, because it's a one-timer and enjoying the finite amount of time you have to live gives you every reason to really enjoy it, to cherish it, because you know that it will end one day. And this is not only a feeling, but embedded in all humans subconsciously. From we grow up we are curious, we want to learn more, we want to experience new things, we want to do so many things before the lights go out.

When I walk out the door on a very cool winter's day and the sky is lightblue, and the stars are up in the fresh night, it's not the wonder of God that strikes me, but the feeling of luck, of being able to feel a simple joy when looking at a very complex piece of machinery. The stars, galaxies, millions of miles away, the moon, the winter season, it's a ballad of complexity and life cycles, and here I stand looking at it all and it all just looks very beautiful, and simple.
It's unique, not because a god made it, but because it came here through incredible chance and incredible if's and buts, and that our species have grown out from the nature of the world and developed so far that we can look at it and reflect on it, enjoy it and fear it.

But I understand the need for religious belief. It's a comfort for many. When you see poor people with nothing it's understandable that the churches and temples and mosques in their towns always fill up, that prayer rings through every home. Painful experiences seem to put humans close to a higher being, a hope.
It's curious that the parts of the world where people are the most well off, living standards being high and general education being high, are also the very same parts where the belief in something supernatural is dimishing and low.
At the same time the culture of religion has a tight hold on the world. So many of the traditions of people is related to religious beliefs and even in the richest countries in the world this tradition and culture is deeply engrained. The institutions of religions, in Christianity and Islam, have been around for a time, and shaking off 2,000 and 1,400-year old traditions isn't done in the blink of an eye.

And so it's a very simple question that comes to mind. When I look at the world, when I experience my life, why would I turn to something that is only seen and understood in a book? In a book where most of the authors remain obscure, unknown, a book that can show me nothing in this world any better than I can understand them from books of science, experience of life and interaction with other people.
Why would I trust a belief in something supernatural, whos entire existence is based on a single book, which I have never felt present in this world?

The world comes out as truly remarkable when one acknowledges that the chance of it being this way is infinitely small, and that one is lucky enough to be born. With a belief in gods and ghosts, for me, comes layers of mystery and simplicity, a degrading of the beauty of it and a dumbing down of the complexity of it. Rather a life and then a final death, then a life lived on the premise that there will be another life after it, last eternally. The former life gives reason to enjoy life like nothing else!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

As for my view of the world, it's clear, and honest.

I'm glad it is .

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

In my view the world is exactly what it appears to be, based on everything my senses tell me, and everyway nature interacts with us, that there is no hocus pocus, no fairy tale magical beings floating here and there, always hidden, never being especially constructive.

I have a couple criticisms of this view. The first is that you don't actually believe in the world as your senses tell you, for your immediate bodily senses could tell you nothing about electrons or quarks. Many of the things you believe about nature are your beliefs because of advanced technology, not the senses.

Also, you actually disbelieve the senses on many occasions. All kinds of people have had visions or seen miracles. I've talked with people who have seen ouija boards levitate into the air all on their own, or have seen people with disabilities have limbs grow longer or shorter in answer to prayers, etc. etc. Miracles and visions are a part of the experience of humanity throughout time, and they are part of the experience of the senses.

Your claim that these fairy beings never do anything constructive is also based purely on conjecture, as you don't have any idea to what extent they have influenced "natural" events.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I believe the reason humans believe in gods and ghosts is multi-layered, but it is only a figment of the imagination. It's a device and it's a solution. The idea of a God is comforting, an all-powerful God that watches over us for all eternity. A God that can welcome us to heaven when we die. It's a comfort, and a clinging on.

Non-Christians, atheists and others have had spiritual experiences too. Sometimes they try to reexplain them- other times they have become religious, and other times they don't try to explain them and just file that weird memory.

Many people don't believe in God because they find the idea comforting but because they interactively experience a powerful, awe-striking Lover in their lives.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Nobody wants things to end completely, the last ending. In my opinion, because nothing whatsoever seems to point in any other direction, death is the end. After it, there is nothing. The body is dead, the brain is dead, it's decomposing and millions of tiny creatures use the leftovers from the body, and the earth swallows whole the body and so it continues. Death spurs life.

Have you ever heard of Near Death Experiences? Many people have been pronounced clinically dead, and no electrical activity shows up on their MIG, but they are resusitated (how do you spell that?) using modern medical technology. They have frequently recounted having had amazingly vivid spiritual experiences after death, and they describe paranormal phenomenon too that can't be explained. For instance, many of them have been able to describe clearly what their doctors were doing and where different people were, and even what people said, while the patients were clinically dead. The spiritual experiences people have after death tend to fall into two categories: Experiences very much like heaven, and experiences very much like hell. They see angels and brilliant light, or they see darkness and hear screams and sometimes see demons tormenting people.

Not all NDE accounts parallel Christian theology perfectly. Some people have come back believing in reincarnation, and describing being met by Buddha or Muhammad. However, some people describe their experience having started out with brilliant light but then having turned into a hellish experience afterward, so it is perfectly possible that those influenced by these eroneous beliefs could have ended up in a hell-like experience if they'd had an opportunity to "go further."

Anyway, there is a good deal of evidence of life after death. There are NDE's, but there also are loads of spiritual experiences the living have which provide evidence supporting life after death.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

And it's a mind-opening choice to make, not to believe in afterlife, because it's nod to the fact that someday it'll all end and my own body will just lie there, until it is completely gone, and that after the light goes out it will stay dark.

Not really, of course, for there couldn't logically be any "dark" according to your view. You couldn't possibly experience anything prior to your conception, so you couldn't possibly experience anything after death either, according to your view. So there'd be no dark.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

But that is why life is so fantastic, so unique, because it's a one-timer and enjoying the finite amount of time you have to live gives you every reason to really enjoy it, to cherish it, because you know that it will end one day. And this is not only a feeling, but embedded in all humans subconsciously. From we grow up we are curious, we want to learn more, we want to experience new things, we want to do so many things before the lights go out.

You want to do that anyway, as a Christian. I know that my lifespan here on Earth is limited and the universe is an astounding part of God's creation which I'll only enjoy in this form in a very temporary way. So I want to appreciate it as much as I can and do God's will in it as much as I can while I have this chance in the flesh!

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

When I walk out the door on a very cool winter's day and the sky is lightblue, and the stars are up in the fresh night, it's not the wonder of God that strikes me, but the feeling of luck, of being able to feel a simple joy when looking at a very complex piece of machinery. The stars, galaxies, millions of miles away, the moon, the winter season, it's a ballad of complexity and life cycles, and here I stand looking at it all and it all just looks very beautiful, and simple.
It's unique, not because a god made it, but because it came here through incredible chance and incredible if's and buts, and that our species have grown out from the nature of the world and developed so far that we can look at it and reflect on it, enjoy it and fear it.

I'm glad you acknowledge how amazingly small the probability is that the universe come to exist in such a way that life could exist in it. That's actually one of the arguments used to support the case for God's hand in it.

There's more than one way to find great appreciation in the smallness of that "chance" .

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

But I understand the need for religious belief. It's a comfort for many.

If that's what you "understand," then you don't understand the religious belief of many. Sure, there's a comfort about the afterlife, but how much do I think about my afterlife? A few minutes a month? And how much do I think about God? A few hours each day. God is here NOW doing things in our lives now, pouring out his love into us in ways so deeply intimate that many can't even talk about their spiritual lives comfortably. It's like talking about their sex lives or something, because their experiences of God, their Lover, are so penetrating, so extremely intimate and powerful. God pours out his love to his followers here on Earth in ways that make people burn with devotion for him throughout their lives. People die for Christ not for their afterlives, most of the time, but because they love Christ. Jesus said, "Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." We love God. He's not an abstract belief but a person who speaks to us all day long!!!

If we listen.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

When you see poor people with nothing it's understandable that the churches and temples and mosques in their towns always fill up, that prayer rings through every home. Painful experiences seem to put humans close to a higher being, a hope.

True, pain does seem to draw people toward God. That's largely because he's a source of enormous joy in their lives, and he is the source of their love and virtues, and of the strength they need to get by day after day. Thoughts about the afterlife also can bring people to God, it's true, but that's only one variety of faith. You're basically looking at a slope covered with rocks and seeing only one rock rather than the entire cliff. Religious life is so much more than the one rock-one's own afterlife-and that one rock in fact is not that big a focus for many people. The experience of Christianity is the whole cliff of boulders and stones, not the one rock you're staring at!

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

It's curious that the parts of the world where people are the most well off, living standards being high and general education being high, are also the very same parts where the belief in something supernatural is dimishing and low.

That's not so odd. Jesus said in his time, "how hard it is for the rich man to come to the kingdom of God!" Because they feel like they don't need God as much, so they focus inward on themselves.

This is the story of Israel throughout the Old Testament. They start to do well, then they get corrupt and idolatrous, so God punishes them, so they repent, so they are forgiven and blessed again, so they go back to being idolatrous, so God punishes them again, and so on.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

And so it's a very simple question that comes to mind. When I look at the world, when I experience my life, why would I turn to something that is only seen and understood in a book?

Because you're one very small human with very limited knowledge, like the rest of humanity, and like the rest of humanity, you are very prone to making errors in judgment. That book offers you what you need most from life: Unity with God.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

In a book where most of the authors remain obscure, unknown,

I could get into the authors issue easily enough. It's sufficient to know, however, for the purposes of argument, that the New Testament Gospels were accepted as completely true throughout the Early Church from a very, very early date. They had the support of the Early Church leaders who passed on (and died for their belief in) the teachings of the apostles, so it's basically certain that they reflect the original teachings of the disciples.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

a book that can show me nothing in this world any better than I can understand them from books of science, experience of life and interaction with other people.

That's an assumption. If you assume it isn't divinely inspired, then you find it's just one more human opinion and you can agree with parts you like and disagree with parts you don't like. On the other hand, if it represents a perfectly righteous standard, then conforming to it will unify your will with the divine will and with the perfect rather than with the humanly flawed moral center. Which would prove an incredible blessing, as hundreds of millions of people find it to be today.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Why would I trust a belief in something supernatural, whos entire existence is based on a single book,

It isn't. Many believers experience God all the time, hearing his voice in countless ways outside of the Bible as well as within, and having powerful spiritual experiences that confirm their faith and deepen their love for God. Praise the Lord, dear Christ .

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

which I have never felt present in this world?

The answer to this is simple. Jesus said, "Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you." Seek God and tell him you'll devote your life to him if he reveals himself to you, and seek God persistently, and he will reveal himself to you in a way that makes sense to your reason and fills your heart with a fountain of new love and joy.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The world comes out as truly remarkable when one acknowledges that the chance of it being this way is infinitely small, and that one is lucky enough to be born. With a belief in gods and ghosts, for me, comes layers of mystery and simplicity, a degrading of the beauty of it and a dumbing down of the complexity of it.

That's how I feel when you insist that you have an answer to every one of your questions about God's behavior in the world before you convert. If everything was easy to understand and every question had an obvious answer, God would be no more complex than we are.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Rather a life and then a final death, then a life lived on the premise that there will be another life after it, last eternally. The former life gives reason to enjoy life like nothing else!

I know . . . and license to pervert oneself and harm others like nothing else. For if no one is going to last anyway and no one has any intrinsic value beyond that of another animal, why not just speed up the process for someone if he's bothering me? This perspective can create hideously self-centered behavior in some people. There is no certainty that there will be a Final Judgment, so there is license for destructive acts.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

When I walk out the door on a very cool winter's day and the sky is lightblue, and the stars are up in the fresh night, it's not the wonder of God that strikes me, but the feeling of luck, of being able to feel a simple joy when looking at a very complex piece of machinery. The stars, galaxies, millions of miles away, the moon, the winter season, it's a ballad of complexity and life cycles, and here I stand looking at it all and it all just looks very beautiful, and simple.
It's unique, not because a god made it, but because it came here through incredible chance and incredible if's and buts, and that our species have grown out from the nature of the world and developed so far that we can look at it and reflect on it, enjoy it and fear it.

A Norwegian poet wrote a poem called "To one nameless", beginning with the words "Whom should I give thanks to?" (my translation. Original: "Til ein namnlaus" by Tor Jonsson, beginning "Kven skal eg takke?").

He ponders all the things he wants to give thanks for, like his ability to see the world, and I think he would have agreed with you about the beauty and the simpleness and the uniqueness.

I don't know whether he regarded himself an atheist or an agnostic, but he seems to feel a certain sadness that he hasn't got anyone to give thanks to. He asks the giver, "Who are you? Why do you keep quiet?" ("Kven er du gjevar? Kvi teier du still?")

And he ends up by giving thanks to someone whom I interpret to be the woman that he loves.

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

In my view the world is exactly what it appears to be, based on everything my senses tell me, and everyway nature interacts with us, that there is no hocus pocus, no fairy tale magical beings floating here and there, always hidden, never being especially constructive.

Totally forgot t jump on this one. Lief covered it already, but I thought I'd put my own spin on it:

Human senses are extremely limited. Many animals that we would call "primitive" (stomatopods, for example) can sense goings on in our environment that we cant. The can sense a much, much wider range of light that we can, and in fact have the most complex eyes in the animal kingdom. We cant even detect this light. We cant detect certain smells, but we know they are there (as Lief said) through advanced technology. Also, how does one count beauty? Better, how does ech person here describe beauty in their own words? I see it as an artistic design, meticulously thought out and intimately known.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Tessar

For instance just to touch on one, what does the economic state of China have to do with the bible? As I recall the bible talks a lot about spiritual wealth, but never promises you heaps of gold and diamonds

Well you've just missed the point completely Tessar. Nobody's talking about gold and diamonds..

It wasn't a belief in Jesus or the awe of God that brought 200 million people in China out of absolute poverty in a few years, a feat that has never happened before in the history of mankind, but intelligent economic measures, the empowerment of many people to have jobs and make a living.
An enormous societal feat, completely unrelated to any higher being.

[Mari]

And you know that because...?
Perhaps China's leaders got inspired. Then again, maybe it was pure luck.
In any case, I don't see how that example disproves the hand of a higher being.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Equality is a modern thing? A fad perhaps? Latest news? Perhaps redundant in the future?

I love it. Also love "Why get Altitude?" which I may add to my quotes. Or make into a t-shirt.

Originally Posted by Tessar

Coffeehouse for the effective purpose of a debate, right now this appears to be extremely unbalanced since it looks like you're just coming up with similar question after similar question for the sake of having Lief write you a reply that's 10x its length.

I don't agree with many of the things that Lief says, but you're attacking things that are not stated. For instance just to touch on one, what does the economic state of China have to do with the bible? As I recall the bible talks a lot about spiritual wealth, but never promises you heaps of gold and diamonds .

The constitution of the USA also states that men are equal. It does not force the wealthy to give all of their money out so that everyone has exactly the same amount of money. It's talking about a different kind of equality.


There are other things I could get into, but I wont because I am not a debater. However, I gotta say I don't think it's particularly great how you're treating Lief. This is less a debate and more like you're trying to interrogate him without putting out much effort yourself to explain your actual view point on the subject.

This is nothing to do with me being a mod, before someone raises the hue and cry--I'm not threatening anyone with bannings or saying you can't do what you're doing. I'm saying that I believe you should reconsider the way in which you are structuring your argument at the moment.

I disagree, Tessar. I think that Coffeehouse is being particularly respectful and using perfectly standard debating strategies. There's no rule in formal debate that anyone represent their own opinion. Lief chooses to do that, partly because he, also, is not a trained logician or debater. Giving Lief the opportunity to present his ideas logically is good training for him.

I understood the China analogy. The question Coffeehouse poses is known classically as "The Problem of Evil" and is an old one. It's a reasonable question, and many people say, "Supernatural explanations are an excuse for people to let suffering continue...that doesn't strike me as ethical behavior for followers of Christ." That's how I read it.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

It's entirely up to Lief to answer my questions. If a 4-paragraph answer is what he would like to use every time.. If he feels that they are questions he doesn't want to answer, then let him decide that for himself. I'm sure he does not need defending. The questions I am posing I feel are relevant, and if he can't see the revelance he can choose not to answer.

Get used to it, Coffeehouse. My mother used to say I was "vaccinated with a phonograph needle." Lief's keyboard is on steroids.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I love it. Also love "Why get Altitude?" which I may add to my quotes. Or make into a t-shirt.

I disagree, Tessar. I think that Coffeehouse is being particularly respectful and using perfectly standard debating strategies. There's no rule in formal debate that anyone represent their own opinion. Lief chooses to do that, partly because he, also, is not a trained logician or debater. Giving Lief the opportunity to present his ideas logically is good training for him.

I understood the China analogy. The question Coffeehouse poses is known classically as "The Problem of Evil" and is an old one. It's a reasonable question, and many people say, "Supernatural explanations are an excuse for people to let suffering continue...that doesn't strike me as ethical behavior for followers of Christ." That's how I read it.



Get used to it, Coffeehouse. My mother used to say I was "vaccinated with a phonograph needle." Lief's keyboard is on steroids.

Support from Sis *blushes*

I thought I was a wordy writer. In Entmoot that belief is put to shame!

[Coffeehouse]

Well you see, Christianity is a very small religion in China, and most Chinese to do not believe in God. So it does not need saying really. The point is that good things happen all the time without any interference by any higher being (a claim of invisible and secret messages of divine truth is not something I am ready to believe in. Highly suspect)

A society where the word of a God, that can neither be seen or heard by all peoples of the world, is the highest word, is not a healthy society. Where all sorts of actions and misdeeds can be carried out under the pretense of having the ear of God. Luckily, the reason of economics steers people out of poverty in China, and not converts or attendance in church or blind faith in a man in Rome.

If being close to a God brings humanity happiness, why is heavily Christian southern Sudan so desolately poor? So desolately unfortunate?

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Well you see, Christianity is a very small religion in China, and most Chinese to do not believe in God. So it does not need saying really. The point is that good things happen all the time without any interference by any higher being (a claim of invisible and secret messages of divine truth is not something I am ready to believe in. Highly suspect)

God can, and will, work through anyone. Who knows, maybe you're strengthening someone's faith by them readin through all these passages.

A society where the word of a God, that can neither be seen or heard by all peoples of the world, is the highest word, is not a healthy society. Where all sorts of actions and misdeeds can be carried out under the pretense of having the ear of God. Luckily, the reason of economics steers people out of poverty in China, and not converts or attendance in church or blind faith in a man in Rome.

In my faith, everyone has the "ear of God". No one person hears it, but when someone does we should listen, with a spirit of discernment.

If being close to a God brings humanity happiness, why is heavily Christian southern Sudan so desolately poor? So desolately unfortunate?

I believe Tessar covered this. Christians arent necessarily promised a better life on Earth, in any way. Just a better life after this one.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

God can, and will, work through anyone. Who knows, maybe you're strengthening someone's faith by them readin through all these passages.

Or making us grateful that summer services are shorter.

I believe Tessar covered this. Christians arent necessarily promised a better life on Earth, in any way. Just a better life after this one.

I don't know how anyone can read the Gospels and conclude this. I just don't.

Jesus was %100 about "daily bread", loaves and fishes, wine at weddings, and love your neighbor. Follow these rules and your life, here on earth gets better.

If you look at Jesus (putting a temporary hold on Revelation. Paul's misogyny, etc.) you get a recipe for right now.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Jesus was %100 about "daily bread", loaves and fishes, wine at weddings, and love your neighbor. Follow these rules and your life, here on earth gets better.

I remember Sunday school vividly, going with all the other children in church to the house on the other side of the yard and learning about Jesus, his miracles, the Good Samaritan, the blind people and the leprechauns. All pleasant experiences and very colorful for a child. And the life lessons that were inherent in these stories are healthy lessons, a healthy challenging of a child's mind and reason.
These are virtues of a good education, but they are not unique. All human beings, whatever views of the world, know stories and have learned stories of virtues and manners and how to give happiness to others and be happy oneself. They're not inherently Christian as little as they're inherently Muslim or Native American.