Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace - Page 4

Dúnedain · 11-19-2003, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
Ya could have fooled me.

In retrospect, I suppose bowing is a little outdated between leaders of nations and shaking hands is a rather more equal and suitable these days.

But I had NO idea that's still such a hot issue in America. I mean, how long has it been since you became independant from England? Over 200 years?

I had absolutely no idea Americans kept these grudges for so long. If I was writing in Dutch I would say something about getting old cows out of the ditch, but I doubt that has the same meaning in English. Anyway, just forget what I said about the cows. I mean if we would do the same here we'd probably still be holding grudges against France, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Spain. Probably some others too.

Well I guess we didn't read the same thread. The person who started the thread said this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Radagast
I wonder if Bush shall observe proper protocol and bow to the Queen, as he should?

So, we had to defend our position on the manner, considering the very first post of this thread said our leader should bow to the queen...

Ruinel · 11-19-2003, 06:23 PM

Wow, we are way off topic now.

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
...We are basically seperate countries in a Union. In my view - sometimes too strong of a Union. The Federal government in my opinion has TOO much power now.

Some things should NOT be determined by the states, separately. If the states had their way, the separation of church and state would just be words on paper. It was the federal government that stepped in to protect citizens' individual freedoms as granted by the constitution of the USA against the so called State's rights to keep these freedoms and equality from the individual (segregation, Jim Crow laws, 19th Amendment, etc.). And I'm surprised at you, JD.

Of all people, you should be thankful of a strong federal government. It was the shift of power from the states to the federal government that has made us a stronger nation.

Insidious Rex · 11-19-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
tisk tisk tisk. What a shame that you think this of your own people. I hope I'm mistaken here.

what youve never been embarrassed by something another american has said? or just their attitude and way of expressing themselves? i sure have. dont see how that makes me a communist or something. guess im just a bigger fan of tact if at all possible and not the whole knee jerk thing. ya know?

Quote:

If the president of the US were shot and killed... OMG!! We'd have Dick Cheney!!!

grk. thats the second time someone has mentioned that. are you trying to make me hyperventilate or something?

*imagining reporter at news conference*

..and with that presidential decree, president cheney has abolished the energy department and replaced it with the board of directors from Halliburton who have stated their first plan of action is to rename Iraq "Halliburton East" and deploy 30 million troops to guard the planned "Bagdad to Broadway Pipeline".

***Valandil*** · 11-19-2003, 06:33 PM

Whoo-hoo! THIS thread has really got people goin today!

Posts flyin' in like mad!

*DUCK - here comes another!!!*

Nice to kick up the dust around here now and then, I suppose!

***Valandil*** · 11-19-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Not that we Americans are trying to pick a fight about it...

After all, why would we need to??? Hee-hee!

All us Americans are fighting it out among each other in here anyway! Guess it's what keeps us strong!

***Earniel*** · 11-19-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

We are a proud people

I've noticed.

Quote:

But is the queen of England really a leader of her nation? What laws does she set down? Does she determine if the troups go to war? What is her power in England?

I suppose a British person is more fit to answer that than me. I don't know much of the British monarchy. (It never really interested me, sorry) Though if I reason according Belgian lines, I'd think in a ceremonial way she is a leader of her nation. But then again I suppose living in a monarchy gives you a different perspective.

Quote:

Well I guess we didn't read the same thread.

We did read the same thread, I apparently just interpret it different that you.

jerseydevil · 11-19-2003, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Some things should NOT be determined by the states, separately. If the states had their way, the separation of church and state would just be words on paper. It was the federal government that stepped in to protect citizens' individual freedoms as granted by the constitution of the USA against the so called State's rights to keep these freedoms and equality from the individual (segregation, Jim Crow laws, 19th Amendment, etc.).

Your example doesn't hold water where you state that the states could just ignore the Constitution since it contains Article VI which states...

Quote:

Article VI

This constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the consitution or laws of any state to the contrary not withstanding.

But then the states - in order to agree the Constitution - demanded the Bill of Rights which so many people like to quote - particulary - the 1st and 5th Amerndments. But in addition to these two, the Bill of Rights also added to the Constitution Amendment 10 - to MAKE sure the states did not lose their individual rights - but yet can not at the same time ignore the laws of the Constitution...

Quote:

Amendment 10

The powers not delegated to the United States by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved TO the STATES respectively, or TO the PEOPLE.

You example of the seperation of church and state first of all does not fly - because even though I agree with seperation of church and state - the constitution says nothing about seperation of church and state. It meerly says...

Quote:

Amendment 1

Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibit the free exercise thereof;...

I says nothing about religion in schools or seperation of church and state. What it says is that the government would not establish a state religion - nor infringe on other's rights to worship as they pleased.

As for the civil rights movement and so forth - the following amendment was used to outlaw segregation.

Quote:

Amendment 14
Section 1

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the priviledges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within it's jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.

That amendment was in 1868 it took 100 years for that to be interpretted as not to "infringe on others rights" - including abolitioning state segregation. The courts handled it. There is no INTERPRETATION when it comes to how the president is to be elected. It is spelt out VERY clearly in Article II Section 1. The US government can not take this right from the states to elect the president. It is the states who elect the president - not the general population.

Quote:

And I'm surprised at you, JD. Of all people, you should be thankful of a strong federal government. It was the shift of power from the states to the federal government that has made us a stronger nation.

The federal government was solely for the common defense, manage trade, manage disputes among the states, and handle international affairs. It has grown beyond that. I am first a New Jerseyan - second an American. If the US government was trying to take away a right that was in the power of NJ to determine - I would be against the US government. Just like I was and is against the US government from infringing on the right of Oregon to allow assisted suicide.

The United States is stong because of the states - the federal government however is beaurocratic mess. It has overall - grown too large.

You are aware that Texas has in their agreement with the United States that they can leave the Union whenever they choose I know. Not that I think we would ever allow them to - at least not without payment for all the past benefits. Texas is one fo the BIGGEST supporters of state rights. texas even calls itself the Lone Star State. Congress is made up of representatives of the states. I don't expect MY congressmen to be supporting Texas - I expect them to be supporting me and NJ.

sun-star · 11-19-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I agree on the hand-shaking between leaders of nations. But is the queen of England really a leader of her nation? What laws does she set down? Does she determine if the troops go to war? What is her power in England?

I thought you didn't care what we do? (I'm paraphrasing of course - you put it more strongly

) Why ask and expect anyone to answer if you're only going to use the answer to attack us?

Did anyone see/read the speech Bush gave today? I thought it was good.

jerseydevil · 11-19-2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
what youve never been embarrassed by something another american has said? or just their attitude and way of expressing themselves? i sure have. dont see how that makes me a communist or something. guess im just a bigger fan of tact if at all possible and not the whole knee jerk thing. ya know?

Sometimes tack doesn't work and it's not necessarily knee-jerk. I don't see the french being embarrassed by Chirac throwing that tempertantrum in the EU meeting last year. I am happy that our Congress seems more civilized than many of the parliaments of Europe and aren't shouting each other down. As for being embrassed by another American - I can't say I am. It's more like I think they are personally a moron. If other countries want to view that as America as a whole - that is their own ignorance.

There are times when I wish Bush wouldn't swagger and stuff - but I see he does it when he is trying to make a point and get under someone's skin. He doesn't always swagger - as in today's speeches. Many in the media like to portray his swaggering a lot and it may grate on European nerves - but a lot of what their leaders do gets on my nerves.

jerseydevil · 11-19-2003, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sun-star
Did anyone see/read the speech Bush gave today? I thought it was good.

Yes - I saw it. As I was stating in my post above - Bush doesn't always swagger - only when he is trying to get under someone's skin. He has several different speech methods - this is his more intellectual and calm style. I think Europe tries to highlight his more swagger style - where he leans on the podium and almost talks out the side of his mouth. I don't particularly like that style - but I know why he is doing it.

Germany didn't like the speech - although France seemed to - according the representatives they interviewed on CNN.

Sween · 11-19-2003, 07:55 PM

Has JD draged that bloody consitution into another thread? lol how does he do it

JD i love you

jerseydevil · 11-19-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
Has JD draged that bloody consitution into another thread? lol how does he do it

It takes practice and commitment.

Quote:

JD i love you

Love you too.

Maybe we should discuss this in the gay and lesbian thread - j/k

***Khamûl*** · 11-19-2003, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Whoo-hoo! THIS thread has really got people goin today! Posts flyin' in like mad!

*DUCK - here comes another!!!*

It's got everyone's flamethrowers out too...

*puts on asbestos suit*

Please keep your inflammatory comments and flames to yourself or this thread will have to suffer the same fate as so many other political threads... Be civil, people.

*spends the next half hour deleting flames*

jerseydevil · 11-19-2003, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khamûl
*spends the next half hour deleting flames*

If you're not careful - you may just have to change your title from "Slacker Admin" to somethign like "just not working too hard"

***Khamûl*** · 11-19-2003, 09:20 PM

Oh no, I'm still doing plenty of slacking. Especially on the weekends.

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sun-star
I thought you didn't care what we do? (I'm paraphrasing of course - you put it more strongly) Why ask and expect anyone to answer if you're only going to use the answer to attack us?

I do not plan to attack you. The statement I responded to said "between leaders of nations". I'm just trying to find out how the queen is a leader of a nation, other than being like a celebrity (ie, Michael Jordan is a leader).

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khamûl
It's got everyone's flamethrowers out too... *puts on asbestos suit*

Mwhahahahahahaha!!!!

Ruinel · 11-20-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
what youve never been embarrassed by something another american has said? or just their attitude and way of expressing themselves? i sure have. dont see how that makes me a communist or something. guess im just a bigger fan of tact if at all possible and not the whole knee jerk thing. ya know?

OH, hell yeah.

GrayMouser · 11-20-2003, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
I do not plan to attack you. The statement I responded to said "between leaders of nations". I'm just trying to find out how the queen is a leader of a nation, other than being like a celebrity (ie, Michael Jordan is a leader).

If you're talking on a legal basis, then the Queen is the head of state, while the Prime Minister is the head of government.

Many countries separate government this way. It's supposed to give a figure who is above politics and can represent the entire nation, rather than just one faction.

If it's a Constitutional monarchy the monarch represents the country (Britain, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Spain, Thailand, Japan, Malaysia, etc.) ; in a republic it is the president.

Sometimes the President is basically a figurehead (India, Germany, Italy) with a few emergency powers; sometimes (France, Taiwan) power is divided.

In the US and other countries with similar congressional systems the President is head of state AND head of government (Phillipines, Indonesia, most of Latin America).

AFAIK in diplomatic protocol all heads of state are considered equal, and so do not bow to each other.

Draken · 11-20-2003, 05:27 AM

I hear Dubya might come up to Sedgefield. Would be good if he saw some of the UK other than that cruddy conurb London!

Not sure how they'll deal with security though - maybe an extra bouncer on the door of the Working Men's Club?

11-19-2003, 07:55 PM	#71
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	Has JD draged that bloody consitution into another thread? lol how does he do it JD i love you __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

11-19-2003, 09:20 PM	#75
*Khamûl* Slacker Warrior Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,759	Oh no, I'm still doing plenty of slacking. Especially on the weekends. __________________ "If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31

11-20-2003, 05:27 AM	#80
Draken Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durham, England Posts: 694	I hear Dubya might come up to Sedgefield. Would be good if he saw some of the UK other than that cruddy conurb London! Not sure how they'll deal with security though - maybe an extra bouncer on the door of the Working Men's Club? __________________ I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I?

11-19-2003, 06:33 PM	#64
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Whoo-hoo! THIS thread has really got people goin today! Posts flyin' in like mad! DUCK - here comes another!!! Nice to kick up the dust around here now and then, I suppose!