Dress codes.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I only know of it meaning just general goodness or else a sort of kindness. People are often quite liberal with their use of Latin words in logos.

Not the Catholic School I went to (uh-oh I told my dirty, little secret)

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Hehe alright, there we have it. That kind of clothing isn't exactly dignifying is it. The clothes I wore was a suit, with a corresponding tie (only one tie. Lose that tie and big trouble), a posh grey sweater and black formal shoes. On top of that the words Bonitas, Disciplina and Scientia were written on the right-hand side of our suit and sweater. Grace (Or honour),Discipline and Knowledge. As always, it's not wearing any uniform, it's what the uniform represents.

So... back to your original point... the clothes don't matter? It's apparently NOT about the clothes? Make up your mind, man. It's either one, or the other. Oh, and I LOVE how you're correcting the latin graduate on his latin. Is there anything you DON'T know?

[Tessar]

Lets all make an effort to word our posts in a non inflammatory manner, please.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Not the Catholic School I went to (uh-oh I told my dirty, little secret)

Eh...I really think "Decor" would be a much better way to convey "Gracefulness".

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Oh, and I LOVE how you're correcting the latin graduate on his latin.

Not a graduate yet, dear. Wait another year, and get back to me.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

So... back to your original point... the clothes don't matter? It's apparently NOT about the clothes? Make up your mind, man. It's either one, or the other. Oh, and I LOVE how you're correcting the latin graduate on his latin. Is there anything you DON'T know?

Heh yeah, speaking of hotheadedness... I have no disagreement that the term means goodness, but that word can take on a variety of meanings and interpretations, just like any other word. I've understood it as graceful behaviour (that includes being good to others).

I think this will be probably the 5th or worse, 6th time, I state this (I'm not going to say it again).
So these are my thoughts on uniforms: No it's not the clothes themselves, as in, if society would rather walk in long, silver robes (fine!), but since Western etiquette says suits for men and skirts&the rest for ladies that is how it is. Thus, the type of clothes don't matter per se, as long as it is found respectable, and as long as the clothes find accept and importance for the students, just as much as for the teachers.
Further, what I'm saying is that it is not putting on any identical set of uniforms on all the students that has the effect. It's the symbolism of the uniform, what they represent, that is important.
A minimum requirement for this to work is that the clothes are more or less comfortable. But that's just one part. Then the school needs to promote why the uniforms are there, promoting it not as a negative backlash against lots of 'distasteful' clothing styles, but as a positive change, a way of promoting an identity for the school and as a code of behaviour (the respectable uniforms as a daily reminder of respectable behaviour).

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I see. So going to a decent elementary school is pretty crucial then. I'm guessing the large immigrant groups in the Netherlands see the downside of this?

No, not really. Our schools are pretty good on the overall and you'll get to your level usually, no matter what school you went to.
To take myself as an example, I went to a four-star school (which is the least good sort of school) but I ended up going to level 1.
In the cities there are problems with immigrant groups, yes. However in my opinion it is not necessarily because of the school system. As I said, if you want to get somewhere, you can. The problems lie more in the situation at home and the general mentality, not just of the immigrants, but also of employers, etc.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Mari

No, not really. Our schools are pretty good on the overall and you'll get to your level usually, no matter what school you went to.
To take myself as an example, I went to a four-star school (which is the least good sort of school) but I ended up going to level 1.
In the cities there are problems with immigrant groups, yes. However in my opinion it is not necessarily because of the school system. As I said, if you want to get somewhere, you can. The problems lie more in the situation at home and the general mentality, not just of the immigrants, but also of employers, etc.

Mhm. I wonder because I searched around abit for levels and Dutch education system, and I came upon an article in the Brussels Journal, which presented an example from Amsterdam that I'm rubbing my eyes on:
"A school in Amsterdam has introduced separate entrances for white and coloured pupils. At the Rietlanden/8th Montessori school in the east end of Amsterdam there are two separate entrances 30 metres apart, one for native Dutch children and one for immigrants. The school authorities claim that this situation has nothing to do with racism because the school welcomes children from all ethnic groups. All it wants is for them to enter through different doors. The school constitutes a complex with two sections. One, the coloured section, is called “Rietlanden,” the other, the white section, “8th Montessori.”

[Mari]

Just as an aside: Montessori schools are for children with learning disabilities.
I don't know why they would do that. I would have to read the entire article to understand the situation. I'm sure there is a very good reason why they do this, because otherwise it wouldn't be tolerated by the government and they would be sued for racism/discrimination.
What I can think off without having read the source, is that Rietlanden is probably not for children who have a learning disability, but who are behind with the Dutch language and therefore cannot go to a normal school while the Montessori school is for children with a disability.

Maybe we should start a thread on education Sorry Sis, for taking over your thread

[Coffeehouse]

Okey that's perhaps understandable then, if they are two different schools.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Mhm. I wonder because I searched around abit for levels and Dutch education system, and I came upon an article in the Brussels Journal, which presented an example from Amsterdam that I'm rubbing my eyes on:
"A school in Amsterdam has introduced separate entrances for white and coloured pupils. At the Rietlanden/8th Montessori school in the east end of Amsterdam there are two separate entrances 30 metres apart, one for native Dutch children and one for immigrants. The school authorities claim that this situation has nothing to do with racism because the school welcomes children from all ethnic groups. All it wants is for them to enter through different doors. The school constitutes a complex with two sections. One, the coloured section, is called “Rietlanden,” the other, the white section, “8th Montessori.”

Originally Posted by Mari

Just as an aside: Montessori schools are for children with learning disabilities.
I don't know why they would do that. I would have to read the entire article to understand the situation. I'm sure there is a very good reason why they do this, because otherwise it wouldn't be tolerated by the government and they would be sued for racism/discrimination.
What I can think off without having read the source, is that Rietlanden is probably not for children who have a learning disability, but who are behind with the Dutch language and therefore cannot go to a normal school while the Montessori school is for children with a disability.

Maybe we should start a thread on education Sorry Sis, for taking over your thread

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Okey that's perhaps understandable then, if they are two different schools.

The original article included a link to this update.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/691

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Mari

Just as an aside: Montessori schools are for children with learning disabilities.

Really? Here in the U. S., it's a particular method of education.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Really? Here in the U. S., it's a particular method of education.

But it may be the favored method for LD kids. Aspects of the Montessori method, such as the tactile component and sorting activities are often featured in LD educational systems. Mari's experience may be that parents with concerns choose that track.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Mm, yes, that makes sense.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

The original article included a link to this update.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/691

Hah! Awful mistake

In any case it seems the Dutch achieve a high standard even though they have a rather unique education system (never heard of anything like it).

[Mari]

Sis, thanks for clearing that up. I thought it might be something like that. ^_^

Andreas, yeah. It surprised me that there are so few other countries who split students up. I mean: what's the use of trying to teach everyone the same thing when not everyone can study as well or has the same interests? That doesn't mean that our system is perfect though. Far from it. You should hear my mother on it. (hint: if you ever meet her, do not EVER ask her about my elementary school. Especially not in relation to me)

[Nurvingiel]

I have never attended a school with a uniform, but they did have dress codes. The dress code was simple; just that you couldn't wear anything inappropriate (which any sensible person could easily determine for themselves). There were rarely problems with the dress code.

There was one aspect of the high school dress code that annoyed me though. You could not wear a hat anywhere in the building, not even in the hallway. This confused me, as the reason given for this rule is that hats would be a distraction in the classroom. This reason struck me as stupid since there are many things more distracting than hats in the classroom (such as teenagers). I decided to wear a hat in the hall once, just to make the vice principal explain to me why I couldn't. I'm not the sort of person who likes uniforms when not playing sports.

Years later, I realized that the real reason is that wearing a hat indoors is considered a bit rude. Had that been explained to me, I wouldn't have had a problem with the rule. I normally do take my hat off inside, but since a stupid reason was given for the no hat rule, I just had to break it once.

I have no problem with uniforms when they serve a purpose. I've played loads of sports, and most of them involved a uniform. Tennis has a dress code, but no uniform (unless you're on a team I guess). The karate gi is extremely practical and durable, and reflects the long tradition of karate. Rugby jerseys tell you, when you need to know in a hurry, who you tackle and who you don't. Etc.

School uniforms could be practical, if done right (not those horrid things like BoP described!) but IMO I don't know if it would be worth the effort. I think it's more like Coffeehouse said (paraphrase) - it's not really the uniform, per se, but the effort the school administration puts into discipline and instilling a sense of school pride in the students. But you don't need a uniform to do that, necessarily, so why bother IMO.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

In Taiwan, the kids wear uniforms- I have no idea whether it makes a difference in behaviour or not.

Of course, being Taiwan, they manage to mess it up as much as possible. The kids wear uniforms on Monday and Thursdays, sweats (also unique to each school) on Tuesdays and Fridays, and their own clothes on Wednesdays- except half the classes are reversed, wearing uniforms on Tuesdays and Fridays, sweats on Mondays and Thursdays. They also change days every now and then for special events.

Raising three boys in different grades and trying to keep track of who's wearing what on which day....

Hahaha, that's insane. The uniform sounds a lot like wearing normal clothes.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I only know of it meaning just general goodness or else a sort of kindness. People are often quite liberal with their use of Latin words in logos.

Tell me about it. The logo for my alma mater is "Tuum est." Apparently, it means "It is yours." Gwaimir, can you confirm or deny that it really means "It is your massive student debt"?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Tell me about it. The logo for my alma mater is "Tuum est." Apparently, it means "It is yours." Gwaimir, can you confirm or deny that it really means "It is your massive student debt"?

HAAAAAH!!!!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Tell me about it. The logo for my alma mater is "Tuum est." Apparently, it means "It is yours." Gwaimir, can you confirm or deny that it really means "It is your massive student debt"?

Well, it could a shortened form of "tuum est discipuli creditum colosseum", in which case....

[Coffeehouse]

Hey the cool thing about latin is that if you know english, and a superficial understanding of the roman languages (french, spanish, portuguese, italian), you can pretty much understand the latin straightforward: I'd translate the words,

tuum est discipuli creditum colosseum

as:

tuum, your
est, is
discipuli, a 'student', as in disciples being students or followers of Jesus.
creditum, money
colosseum, collossal, large

Cool

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, I know. I used to more or less know Portuguese (forgot a lot of it), but I was very surprised how much Latin I already knew.

Creditum is kind of funny; it's used for "debt" but it literally means "that which is believed".