03-26-2005, 06:08 PM | #61 | ||
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Wow Gordis and Olmer, you guys put way more thought into this than I did.
But I disagree with a few of your points Gordis. Even though Gandalf suspected that Bilbo had a Ring of power and knew where it was, the Ring wasn't in Gandalf's keeping. Further, he only confirmed it was the One Ring when Frodo had it. Also, Gandalf never actually touched the Ring, not even one time. He was always handling it with fire tongs or whatever, on the rare occasions he even looked at the Ring. I get the impression he avoided it and possible temptation as much as possible after he knew it was the One ring. (Before that, I don't think he would have an issue with its presence, since he bore a ring of power already.) I agree that Elrond and Celebrian wasn't a mis-alliance. Another reasons for waiting so long to marry, is Elves stay engaged for quite a long time IIRC. Olmer, unless there's something in UT or HoME, I don't think there is any canonical evidence for snobbery on Galadriel's part (though you're not the only fan with that impression). Further... Galadriel sent a company of Elves to get the Ring at Parth Galen? What the hey?
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03-27-2005, 02:42 AM | #62 | ||||||
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Originally he made this ring not for his own use . If it supposed to save his soul, why he made it VISIBLE and DESIRABLE for someone else? And what practical purpouse in putting on the ring inscription in Feanorian Tengwar, the language of Noldor, which would look familiar or appealing to the High Elves only, and which promised (in a poem! What a guy!!!) a neverending dominion over others? Guess, who also wanted its own realm to"rule them all" ? ”… He endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorns with outward patience and courtesy” (UT) ( Could it be that this old goat decided on life-timless commitment, but got turned down?) Besides, he was not that upset about not having the Ring: "He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done" (FOTR,BookI, Chapter 2).So, he EXPECTED to loose it. Quote:
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But she did not want him to get off the hook, she and Celebrian were making visits in Imladris under different pretenses. Galadriel was usung her daughter, as they using carrot hanging in front donkey, making him, in desire to get it, to outstretch himself. Finally the time has come when the great warrior was put to face the options. He won the hand of Celebrian, paying dearly with his pride and honor. 100 years later ( which is like a one week to compare with 1,5 thousands years) he married her. And on the next morning he woke up as Lord Elrond. Quote:
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Galadriel was not the one who conspired all deceitful things. Many moves was made with knowledge and approval of the elven part of the White Council. She was an originator of ideas and pusher of her policies, but you can’t put a blame only on her. All elves shared her point of view . 1.I don’t think it was an order to kill, but it was the order to orchestrate an ambush and to oversee that the ring would get lost. 4 This is why Sruman was allowed to build his own army. In the case of winning, Mordor would face a new challenger, forgetting about the elves. 5 .She was very familiar with Moria’s surrounding, not once travelled through it and was quite familiar with its dwellers, besides ,the changes, which had happened in Moria , was lengthy. As a ruler she had to think in the first place about the interest of her country, and this is peace, dividends from any outside contacts and , in case of military conflicts, all attempts had to be made not to use its own people. And I don’t believe that she didn’t use any tactical move in her sleeve to insure that the bordering country would be at very least neutral to them. To give her a credit, Moria never went against Lorien. 6. It was 100+ orcs. 8 She personally did not do it, but seems, orders had been made. 9. I never said it, but, yes, it must be the few lorien’s archers to instigate the fight between orcs and to make sure that the ring with the Ringbearer got “lost” in the river again. The reast is more or less close to what I am trying to tell here . |
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03-27-2005, 08:38 AM | #63 | ||
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I imagine a missing scene from "the Hobbit": Somewhere in Misty mountains, TA 2941 Gandalf: -Bilbo, give me that ring for a moment...(Puts the ring on). -Let us see if it can kindle that fire (spark and flames)... -Hmm, how about breaking that rock? (Boom!) -Most interesting! How about contacting someone? (Ring-ring)-Hello, Galadriel, darling! How are you? And Celeborn? And grandchildren? - Eh? No, I call not with Narya, with some other ring I have picked up. I am just testing it. (Giving her a mental order: Sneeze 3 times) Galadriel: sneezes three times. Gandalf: -Oh! it must be the One! How fortunate I stopped before ordering a nazgul to sing "O Elbereth Gilthoniel..."! |
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03-27-2005, 08:42 AM | #64 | |
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03-27-2005, 08:49 AM | #65 | ||||
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I think you contradict yourself. If you question the ability of the One ring to control others (at least the Three) then all your construction about Galadriel's plans falls to pieces. If you accept that the One controls the others, than it means that the One Ring is practicaly canon. I agree, in itself it might be not so formidable as was supposed. I mean if all the 19 were destroyed the One would be reduced to very little. "to destroy the Elves" IMHO means to make them use their Rings, build realms etc. and then corrupt them through the Rings and make the Elf-Lords his pawns and their realms his own. Actually, he had the same plan for all the rings, but it worked only with the 9 (and IMO not entirely either). But it would have worked if the bearers of the Three wielded their rings throughout the Second age. I think he also meant to achieve the downfall of Numenor much earlier by giving 3 of the Nine to the "great Numenorean Lords". He surely wanted to put a nazgul on the throne of Numenor itself. But he failed in this somehow, so he had to wait for 1000 years more till the time of not-so-bright Ar-Pharazon. -If Sauron has made the ring not for his own use why had he GOT HIMSELF KILLED to pass it to others? With his cunning, he could have slipped the ring to them without damage to himself. -Why he made it DESIRABLE? - IMHO Sauron could not help it, it was an intrinsic quality of all the things of Power -VISIBLE? - All the rings are visible when not on someone's finger. Otherwise how can we know that all the rings save The one have stones? How could invisible rings be crafted at all? And, IMHO, when worn, the rings may be visible or invisible according to the wielder's wishes. -The Ring inscription was in Black speech, only in elven runes. And it was invisible. Quote:
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Olmer, Galadriel, as you depict her, would have been a perfect match for Sauron. They would have taken over the world and lived happily ever after . Quote:
..."As Elven lords..." IMHO the keyword here is "Lords", probably meaning the Elves from Valinor. Glorfindel is called Elf-Lord, though he has never had a realm of his own in ME. The Sons of Elrond were born in ME, so they are not Elf-Lords in this sence. And they are not lords of any realms (yet) though heirs to one. The same applies to Legolas, son of King Tranduil. -It is written in UT that at about the middle of the SA "Elrond first saw Celebrian and loved her, though he said nothing of it" So it is not correct that he has awaited Galadriel's permission for half an age. Last edited by Gordis : 03-27-2005 at 01:42 PM. |
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03-27-2005, 03:49 PM | #66 | |
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The three would not give men immortality, such as te elves have. Somewhere (I'm not sure where but I'll try to find the quote) it says that not even the Valar have the power to give men immortality. It may (and probably would) make them wraiths. Remember the Ring was made for one of those powers and would eat away at the bearer if it was not of that power. Gollum was eaten away at, and the Nine became wraiths, as Frodo would have become if he claimed the Ring earlier and constantly wore it, it would diminish him. The elven Rings were the most powerful and men would nbot be able to bear them and lead a life to the same of further extent to what they or elves would have.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-28-2005, 08:26 AM | #67 | |
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And no man were able to predict beforehand what type of immortality would he get. They wanted it anyway. |
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03-28-2005, 09:42 AM | #68 |
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Gandalf's exact words about the flood were 'Elrond commanded it', not Elrond made it happen with his Ring. I think this suggests that he has he same kind of power with Rivedell as Bombadil did with the Old Forest, just nt to the same extent.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
03-28-2005, 10:43 AM | #69 | |||
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I agree with Telcontar here. I think the uses of the Three were more subtle than calling lightning down from the sky. I think it would be more along the lines of enhancing the abilities of the bearer. Maybe Vilya had a hand in the flood at Bruinen, but only to add to what Elrond could already do. That's my opinion anyway.
Further, there's nothing to indicate that the Three granted immortality. All their different bearers (C*rdan, Gil-Galad, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel) were already immortal. Also I don't think many Men even knew about the Three. Galadriel's ring was a surprise to Frodo, and he only noticed it because he was a Ringbearer himself. Sam couldn't see it, and I don't think the rest of the Fellowship was aware of it, barring Gandalf, and maybe Aragorn (who was uncommonly knowledgeable you must admit). EDIT: Quote:
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03-28-2005, 10:48 AM | #70 |
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I agree Nurvi (slightly obvious as you were agreeing with me but anyway). I think that he Dunedain would have known about the Three but there is nthing to indicate that Boromir did before th Council. It is strange however that Gloin knew about the three.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
03-28-2005, 04:47 PM | #71 | |||||||||
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If he would know, that with 19 rings wielding, the elve’s would fall out of Eru’s favor faster than Nunenorians, he would just sat back and enjoyed the show. Quote:
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“ He (Frodo) unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard…Gandalf HELD IT UP…(then, after throwing it into the fire) …”he stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once PICKED IT UP. …’It is quite cool’, said Gandalf. Last edited by Olmer : 03-29-2005 at 12:05 AM. |
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03-29-2005, 06:02 AM | #72 | |
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Do you think that Narya preserved Mithlond while Cirdan bore it there?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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03-29-2005, 07:22 AM | #73 | |
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03-31-2005, 03:30 PM | #74 | |
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How you can get old if the time is not moving and decay, the major factor of body's aging, is absent? Was Mithlond preserved? I think it was, but Cirdan, being the oldest and, probably, the wisest of the Wise, anticipated that playing on God's territory, trying to change the Law of nature, wouldn't get a big sympathies from Eru. And, being precautious, he got rid of the Ring at the first opportunity. |
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03-31-2005, 04:05 PM | #75 | |
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But I'm very sure that in order get what he want Sauron could step aside (not for the first time) and stay in the shadow patiently watching as the Ring slowly working at turning the new Ruler of the World (preferably a Noldor) into his servant, which would give him the GREAT satisfaction. With eons of time at his disposal, waiting for a couple of thousand years to achieve the desired result for him would be a short period of time, comparable to a few weeks. Even being on Isildur(for short period), Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo the Ring transmitted enough of energy to Sauron to be visible again in the form even hideous, but human-like. The draining happens when the energy is getting TRANSMITTED, not when it is getting ACCUMULATED (physic's law ) |
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03-31-2005, 09:10 PM | #76 | |
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04-01-2005, 12:04 AM | #77 | |
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Isildur of Numenorisn bearing probably would become weary after long time of having the Ring in his posession, but on less durable person it would work faster. Frodo reached a total exhaustion in 6 month. |
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04-01-2005, 04:38 AM | #78 | |
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I also wouldn't say he got rid of his Ring at the first opportunity. He could have thrown it to sea, but he didn't, someone wiser than him who he percieved would need the Ring alot more came along and he gave the ing to him.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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04-01-2005, 09:08 AM | #79 | ||
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The timing is wrong. When Isildur wore the Ring Sauron was a bodiless spirit; when Gollum Bilbo and Frodo wore the Ring Sauron must have been already fully incarnate (he run away from GandalF in 2063, returned after the Watchful peace etc.). So Sauron became visible IMHO just because he managed to collect some other rings (dwarven and nazgul) in the absence of the One. The One permitted him to become incarnate not directly, but by its mere existence |
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04-02-2005, 10:14 PM | #80 |
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Personally, I believe the Ring operated akin to a computer program as opposed to possessing sentience but I understand others feel differently.
This is the second thread I've posted on tonight with a link to the FAQ of the Ring. Y'all should check it out, it's well done. This link will take you directly to, "Could the One Ring think, feel, and make choices?" http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Sentient |
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