04-12-2007, 02:40 PM | #61 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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I can't put it more politely than Hector did, so I wont try. Just stop complaining and debate already.
This thread will do well enough. Or if enough people prefer, you can all move to the ancient thread. I really don't mind either way. I'm sure we have countless duplicate threads, and it has rarely been an issue to start a new one. Entmoot is here to bring out the best in us and help us relax--lets all try to remember that. If you cannot debate politely and calmly, then I'm going to start asking you to take a break. I have received far too many PMs this week about the political threads, and frankly that tells me there's a problem with the way you have all chosen to 'run' them. So please, fix the problem. |
04-12-2007, 02:41 PM | #62 | ||
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My uncle got divorced a couple years ago after being married twenty years, I don't know if it was good or bad for them as individuals, but I found it to be very sad for me personally since it put fissures between my family and my aunt (or ex-aunt however that works) and since of course my aunt (or ex-aunt) kept custody of my cousins it pretty much broke off my relationship with them. IMO it sucked because I always liked my cousins on that side of the family.
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04-12-2007, 02:53 PM | #63 | |
Elf Lord
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yeah,
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But I have to say, I think my uncle is as good a grandfather as most, so whatever stresses they had along the way seem to be kind of caught up, at least on the kinds of occassions where I see extended family, now. No scenes at the weddings, or anything. |
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04-12-2007, 03:07 PM | #64 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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As two threads about divorce are active at the same time I have merged them. I only read about the argument later. I understand people wanting to limit the discussion to the certain viewpoints they'd like to discuss, but everyone on Entmoot has as much right to discuss topics and two threads about the same topic is rather redundant.
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04-12-2007, 03:09 PM | #65 |
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.
My point would be that they aren't about the same topic.
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04-12-2007, 03:17 PM | #66 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Yeah, the titles were the same, but while this one is about divorce in general, sis's should have been titled "personal experiences involving divorce".
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04-12-2007, 03:20 PM | #67 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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Well, no sense crying over merged milk .
We can quite easily debate both things in this thread from now on. In my opinion, it's a small enough divergence in the topic that it's not a huge deal. |
04-12-2007, 03:51 PM | #68 | |||
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Tessar has spoken, end of discussion
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As I said, I know several divorced people. Some of them have suffered more than others, there's been varying degress of pain or lack of pain. However I think if these people had stayed in their relationships and not divorced, that would have caused more pain for them and their families over time. So in my opinion, these divorces have generally been good since they've prevented bitter and self-destructive relationships from persisting. Isn't this the main reason why people divorce at all? Quote:
A religious person on another board posted that people who divorce their spouses "may lose their future places in Heaven". If one believes this is the case, then one also has to believe that every divorce is inherently bad. Needless to say, this is not my view
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04-12-2007, 04:09 PM | #69 | |
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I never stay on topic anyway.
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04-12-2007, 04:10 PM | #70 | |
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04-12-2007, 05:03 PM | #71 | ||||||
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brownjenkins, sisterandcousinandaunt, Gwaimir and any others, just ignore studies that I produce and go ahead and talk only about personal experience, if that's what you want to do.
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But you know, those really are forms of evidence from which one comes to a conclusion. You witness a divorce and perhaps the lead-in, and then based on the "evidence" of what you see, you come to a conclusion about divorce in general. It's inductive reasoning. But that's all just semantics, and so not very important to anything . Quote:
I can try to get you his name, if you want. I bet I could find it fairly easily. Here's a confirming source for that: Quote:
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Jesus said that it was acceptable for people to divorce because of the spouse being unfaithful in marriage. That's probably a key reason for the qualifier this religious person used. In a different passage where Jesus was speaking more generally, he didn't mention that qualifier. Therefore we can know that while Jesus thought of divorce as generally a sin, he did think that in certain circumstances, it was acceptable in God's eyes. You can see that also in the Old Testament, when God refers to Israel as an adulterous maiden and punishes her severely as a consequence of her "sexual" immorality. Note that in many of those cases, sexual immorality was imagery for idolatry. I do think, and Jesus' general opposition to divorce seems to confirm, that there are only rarely sufficiently valid reasons for people to enter into divorce. The psychologist (who is a marriage counselor) seems to confirm that too, with his experience of all marriages he encountered being solvable if the partners were willing to give something up to keep the relationship alive. That giving something up was the evidence that they actually wanted to fix the relationship. If they weren't willing to give anything up, that showed that they didn't want to fix the relationship at all, however much they might say they did, and so the problem was with them personally. That's a selfishness issue. I agree with the statement you've quoted from that religious person from the other board, though I don't agree with you, when you say that if it's true, all divorces are inherently bad . Sometimes divorces can indeed be the best option, IMO. I think my perception of heaven might be somewhat different from the view of heaven that that other person has, in that he/she seems to view heaven only as a place that we'll go to rather than as a place many people alive on Earth today already are in, but that's completely irrelevant and off-topic .
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04-12-2007, 05:22 PM | #72 |
The Black Númenórean
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Okay, statistics and polls and surveys aside....
My parents were both married and 'divorced' before they met one another. My father was married to an American woman that used him then abused him ( Funny, you never think of female abusers in a relationship, but it really hurt my dad), and I have a sister from my dad by that marriage. She is nice enough. My mother...well, back home it would be classified as a divorce, but the deal is her husband was murdered, so that was how her first marriage got terminated. I have a brother from my mom's previous marriage. In all, I cant say what would have happened if my mother's first husband wasnt killed...aside from the fact I might not be here today. But I can say that my father's divorce was very good for him. It hurt him, yeah, at first, but if divorce wasnt an option and he had to stay with that woman would have either killed him or he woulda killed her. So I kinda am in favor of divorce really. ****, lets look at WHY people divorce. And screw the polls, do you know the reasons why the couples you know who divorced split up? Generally, its because they were young and stupid, and got caught up in some head trip, and didn't see who it was the were really commiting to. Then they said the vows and somehow they opened their eyes and realized, that perhaps, that person wasnt really the one for em. Sometimes it turns ugly, but sometimes they split up before it ends up like that.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
04-12-2007, 05:30 PM | #73 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-12-2007 at 05:33 PM. |
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04-12-2007, 05:37 PM | #74 | |
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Thanks, sane.
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Without divorce, that family, like you, wouldn't even exist. When I think about the kids I know who were born in second or third marriages...well, it's actually quite a few. It's hard for me to believe it would be a better world without them, yk? |
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04-12-2007, 05:39 PM | #75 |
The Black Númenórean
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Lief, I'm not sure your "Patch up the relationship" sources are a cure all for people. People also seem to learn best by experience in what it takes to find a good mate.
Why use a **** load of plaster and bandaids to patch up something that really isnt working out, when next time you can simpley think it out and choose more wisely. Case in point, my cousin and her husband. They are in their thirties now but Ben, my cousin's husband, married and had a kid when he was in his early twenties, and from what I gather, that was a right proper mess. Ben and his previous wife might have been able to plaster something together haphazardly, but it probably wouldnt have worked out so well. It seems that this time around, he played it smart, and so did my cousin. (she was always pretty wise about this sort of stuff) The two now have a good strong marriage that isnt based on plaster-bandaide work but on a solid foundation to begin with, and they now have a two month old baby girl (heh, whom I've nicknamed 'hamsandwich'). And Ben's son from a previous marriage seems to really be benefitting from this new one too, he loves his new sister, seeing as he was pretty lonely, and with Ben and Mirah (cousin) he has a good base. He has a family now, with cousins and aunts and uncles and the whole nine yards (Me, my mother, father, uncles) that he didn't have before. It seems to have really worked out. I also think that its best to start older, so you actually know somewhat of who you really are. Teeny bopper marriages dont work out at all, and I have lots of experience in that...Yeesh. Any relationship prior to 25 is meaningless, aside from being learning experiences and aside from as a lesson, are not to be taken seriously.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. Last edited by The last sane person : 04-12-2007 at 05:41 PM. Reason: heh, cross posting! |
04-12-2007, 05:55 PM | #76 | |||
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Sane, I just edited the part of my post referring to sources because I've heard people here not wanting to hear sources at all. There are a lot of sources I can show you, though, some of which are professional organizations. They know what they're doing and are good at bringing relationships together again in love, if the people involved actually are willing to try still to make it work. If they come in planning for a divorce and not actually wanting to save their marriages, then no amount of marriage counseling is going to help.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-12-2007, 06:31 PM | #77 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Wow Lief, you certainly dissected my post thoroughly
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04-12-2007, 06:40 PM | #78 | |
The Black Númenórean
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Quote:
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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04-12-2007, 08:39 PM | #79 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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If people didn't get married, the divorce rate would be 0%.
But seriously, that's the biggest cause of the problem. It's so incredibly easy to get married, and incredibly easy to have children, and incredibly hard to imagine the kind of person you will be for the next 50-80 years of your life. That's why I gave my own example earlier. The key with relationships, and with children, is that you are a caring person. If divorce is what two people really want, it can be done in a respective and positive way that can end up better for all the people involved. And that same goes for marriage as well. I know many couples, especially from my father's generation and older, where the parents were about as far apart as two people can be, eventhough they were "married". For the father, it was all about work, hanging with friends, doing guy stuff, and maybe the token hour or two with the kids every week. And for the mother, it was running the household. This kind of couple would come up in the "happily married" statistic any day of the week, but the truth was far from it, but they fall far short of the caring aspect. The key, I believe, is to encourage people to be more honest with themselves and others, and take their time about getting married. Certainly try not to have a baby, but if it happens, don't assume that a shotgun wedding is going to solve all your problems.
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04-12-2007, 08:49 PM | #80 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
I prefer to think that my wife stays with me because she wants to, not because she is expected to.
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