03-01-2004, 03:44 PM | #61 |
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finwe was also feanor's father... and for a man who had already lost his mother, no minor loss
there were many factors involved... not the least of which was a desire for adventure, which even finrod expressed maybe there was a touch of the classic "it is better to rule in hell then serve in heaven"
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03-01-2004, 03:50 PM | #62 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the Converse of Manwë and Eru Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 03-01-2004 at 03:51 PM. |
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03-01-2004, 06:22 PM | #63 | |
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What would you have the Valar do? Reek vengence upon Melkor? That's not their style. I don't see the Valar as petty and vengeful. I see them more as trusting yet wise, powerful yet gentle. The pettiness and vengence was something that Melkor had a lot of. It made him the bad guy. As for Valinor, it is a place of safety only because it is hidden from most of the world. It is a place of beauty because it is the undying lands. It is a place of peace because there is plenty and no one wants for anything. There is no sickness or dying there. A place does not become safe when it is made into a prison, it is only made a stronghold for misery. |
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03-02-2004, 09:56 AM | #64 |
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How can one compare the war and death of Middle Earth, war and death that the Noldor were warned would come to pass if they left Valinor, with the peace of the Undying Lands?
Melkor destroyed the two trees. Melkor killed the high king of the Noldor. Melkor stole the Silmarils. These things he did in Valinor and these things are not in dispute. What is in question, is the relative safety of Aman opposed to Middle Earth. Melkor was able to throw down the lamps of the Valar IN Middle Earth, as well as cast his darkness and his creatures all over the north of Beleriand. His Balrogs, Dragons and Orcish armies wrought massive devastation to all the Children of Iluvatar, killing a great number, INCLUDING several Kings and Lords of the Noldor and the Sindar. The security of Valinor was breached just once, but how many Elvish cities and strongholds were sacked during the War of Beleriand? So good call Noldor, that choice really panned out, didn't it? Oh, and of course this claim: "Wanna know what the Valar did? Nothing, absolutely nothing. " as was so elequently phrased by a previous post. The Valar, as best they may, partially restored the Light of the Two Trees with the Sun and the Moon. The Valar, at first counseled, then insisted, then warned the Noldor, NOT TO GO WHERE THEY COULD NOT PROTECT THEM. Mandos told them of all that would come to pass. If they had just stayed put, none of their misfortunes would have happened. The Noldor should have had more faith in Manwe and less trust in Melkor.
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03-02-2004, 10:40 AM | #65 | |
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One thing that I dispute about what you say... it was not that the Noldor trusted in Melkor, it was that Feanor lent an ear to Melkor's false words learning all too late how false those words were. The body of people who are the Noldor followed their lords to ME, and it was their loyalty and love of kin that kept them together. When Feanor swore an oath to go to ME and take back the Silmarils it was with great sadness that some of them went with him. Some wanted to taste adventure (like Galadriel), that is true... but for the most part, they grieved to leave the peace and beauty of the Undying Lands. In all, it was Feanor's decision that brought them all to ME, and not a group democratic vote on the matter. |
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03-02-2004, 11:18 AM | #66 | |
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I agree with GoG, Valinor was clearly a safer place than M-E, and I don't see what else the Valar could do to keep the Noldor back, other than giving sincere advice and warnings, which they did to no avail. To use force would be unlawful.
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03-02-2004, 11:38 AM | #67 |
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When I originally posed the question, my thinking was that the Valar shirked their duty LONG before Feanor led the Noldor to Middle-earth. It seemed to me that they should have taken on Melkor from the start and that all Arda should have been under their care - not just Aman. Instead, it seems like they threw up their hands in resignation and retreated to their little corner of the world - when Eru had placed the entire world under their care.
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03-02-2004, 11:59 AM | #68 |
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i basically agree with you on that Val... i believe it is even spelled out to some extent in the earlier writings that the valar did not become what they could have been because of this fact
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03-02-2004, 11:59 AM | #69 | |
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In addition, they did not know what Eru wanted. They only waited for Melkor to come around.. like the Prodigal Son. Though he never did. He squandered the powers Eru gave him in selfishness instead of making ME a better place. Did the Valar shirk their duties. I say no. They did exactly what they were supposed to do. They weren't meant to war with each other. |
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03-02-2004, 12:12 PM | #70 | |
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03-02-2004, 12:19 PM | #71 |
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Though I agree with you Val and bj, I think it is also quite understandable that they did not make war. Consider that they had laboured long to shape Arda and make it beautiful and good for the Children to inhabit. I can see that they were reluctant to risk destroying it. It is easy to say afterwards what they should have done, but they could not foresee Melkor's later actions.
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03-02-2004, 12:24 PM | #72 |
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in lost tales there are a few passages (that i don't have on hand atm) that make it pretty clear that the valar had made a mistake by not taking on melko earlier and removing themselves from the greater part of middle earth
this is also evidenced by ulmo's role in these tales... where he was often at odds with the other valar tolkien seemed to have moved away from this later on... trying to reconcile the valar's actions as being the will of eru... if i remember right, in lost tales it was represented as the valar's "duty" to care for the children of ilúvatar... later on they seem to have lost this as a direct responsibility, and became more teachers and advisiors
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03-02-2004, 12:25 PM | #73 |
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Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
An amusing notion just struck me: Sure, it's not 100%, but to a large degree, the males posting think the Valar DID shirk their duty and the females think the Valar DID NOT shirk their duty!
Adds weight to the argument that 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' - with Mars being the Roman god of War and Venus the Roman goddess of Love.
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03-02-2004, 01:10 PM | #74 | |
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Re: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
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brownjenkins, it seems to me that Ulmo had more foreknowledge than the rest of the Valar, so it was easier for him to take actions against Melkor.
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03-02-2004, 01:15 PM | #75 | |
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Re: Re: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
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03-02-2004, 01:19 PM | #76 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
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At least that's what I meant to say.
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03-02-2004, 01:20 PM | #77 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus
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03-02-2004, 02:08 PM | #78 | |
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i refuse to be generalized... typical comment from a chicagoian
i dug up some relative info from christopher tolkien (from the web, so hopefully accurate... bold added) Quote:
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03-02-2004, 04:38 PM | #79 | |
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Melkor was a murderer. Are you saying that it is better to let a murderer run around with the hope that he will be miraculously reformed? I think it is more responsible to cut your losses with Melkor and bring the murderer to justice before he ruins more of middle earth, or murders anyone else. Which is the more responsible action?
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03-02-2004, 11:41 PM | #80 |
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There's a bit of a running theme in good old J.R.R's works, and that is that members of the same race are equals and cannot kill or enslave each other without considerable just cause.
Melkor was a Vala, of the same initial grace and power as Manwe himself, and thus could not ever be simply be enslaved and never be killed. As Ruinel puts it: "There was always hope that he would submit himself to what was best for Ea." This was true from the beginning, even when he started his own themes in the Music. When he descended into his darkness, he was pursued into Middle earth to have justice done to him, and indeed it was. Many and age of servitude did he endure before he was released into Valinor, and even then, he was watched by the Valar. Once he destroyed the Two Trees, the Valar were kind of occupied with matters of illumination, and thus were unable to purse Melkor into ME. And after, he was not forgotten, and would have eventually been assailed, but the Noldor somewhat sped up the timetable. I say again, that if they had just remained in Aman, the Valar could have protected them, and justice would have been done to Morgoth sooner, for the Valar would have been prepared earlier. They first had to secure the Blessed Realm, thus saving something of the initial paradise before the comeing of Melkor's malice.
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