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04-01-2008, 04:48 PM | #1 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Again, I agree with DPR.
There were plenty of changes I was fine with: 1. Bombadil. 2. Cutting Gildor (I know this is minor, but I like the guy. ). 3. Arwen at the Ford (I know this is a big issue for some, and while I don't particularly like it, I understand why he replaced her with Glorfindel...) I even understand why he felt he had to restage 'Window on the West' - it was all talking in the book and would have been dead boring on screen. But none of these things changed essential themes. None of these things (with the possible exception of Arwen, which is debatable) changed any characters. They condensed, perhaps, but they didn't change Tolkien's ideas. Faramir, on the other hand, and the inclusion of Elves at Helm's Deep, did. Quote:
Secondly - if PJ starts changing the basic motivations and reactions of Tolkien's characters, that seems to me like it should be the literary version of libel! I mean, seriously, what if someone decided to make a historical movie based on, say, the American Civil War, and decided to change the motivation of the south to something. For instance: 'Oh, the South isn't going to secede because of States' Rights and Slavery Issues this time, but because they want to form the first Scientology Theocracy!' It might be an interesting film, but it's certainly not about the Civil War. And if someone called it 'The American Civil War' or something similar, people would be pretty upset. Because it's falsely potraying the reality. Just as PJ completely changing characters and their motivations has made it so that his world falsely portrays Tolkien's.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-01-2008 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Typo... |
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04-01-2008, 04:54 PM | #2 | |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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04-01-2008, 06:39 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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04-01-2008, 01:58 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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Well, I will certainly admit to many misunderstandings in my day. I do, though, appreciate the difference between objecting to changes per se and being troubled by changes perceived as being poor. The former is more a philosophical orientation, the latter personal taste (in which the individual is pretty much always right for him or herself!).
Frankly, there are changes in the movies from the books that I, too, dislike. There are also many I like, including many that involve personality changes to main characters that (in my purely subjective view) are overly idealized by Tolkien in the book (Faramir and Elrond are two characters along those lines for me). Benjamin Franklin said many years ago, "There are two kinds of fools. One says, 'Old and therefore good.' The other says, 'New and therefore better.' " I believe essentially the same thing about film differences vis-a-vis the books. P.S. At this very moment, I'm 2/3 of the way through Philip Jose Farmer's take on Oz, A Barnstormer in Oz. Different from both the Baum's books and the movie and very cool! http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/image...._AA240_.L.jpg I also absolutely love Fred Saberhagen's take on the Arthurian legends in Merlin's Bones (would love to see a movie made out of that one!). http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...A240_SH20_.jpg
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 04-01-2008 at 02:01 PM. |
04-01-2008, 05:15 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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I confess I haven't read Baum's complete series in a number of years and The Wizard of Oz was maybe a year ago. I never claimed to read these books before seeing the movie. I don't think it matters which was done first.
One thing this thread has done successfully is motivated me to go back and revisit the Oz books. So there's something positive here.
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04-01-2008, 06:41 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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If I may wax Olde English, niggardly art thou with thy assessment of this thread, Dread PR, to find only this positive aspect of our ongoing dialogue.
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04-02-2008, 07:21 AM | #7 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-02-2008, 07:38 AM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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hummm. On what would one base "what Tolkien meant to express with that character?" I'm suspecting you'll reference some of those tedious books by Christopher.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
04-02-2008, 08:01 AM | #9 |
The Ñoldóran
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Well, I won't now, as they're thousands of miles away and I'm knackered.
But yes, there are comments and notes written by Tolkien in The Histories of Middle Earth volumes as well as letters that can be found in Letters (shockingly ) that can give us a pretty good idea of Tolkien's intentions.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
04-02-2008, 08:25 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Not only that but the text itself, the context if you will, is hardly ambiguous about the motivations of the characters and the points that are being made.
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04-02-2008, 08:36 AM | #11 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-02-2008, 08:53 AM | #12 | ||||||
The Ñoldóran
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Quote:
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But whatever freaks your peaches. Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian Last edited by Curufin : 04-02-2008 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Screwed up... |
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04-02-2008, 09:11 AM | #13 | |||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Encyclopedia Brown had a mystery once where the answer was revealed because someone supposedly contemporaneous said "the First Battle of Bull Run." Quote:
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Maybe the purpose of Helm's Deep in PJ's universe, was to show Theoden's wounds were deep, and have Gandalf fly in so nicely. And the elves left in, because so much eleven stuff had been removed. where's my shrug smilie?...
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-02-2008, 09:58 AM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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Excellent - thanks for the new expression!
Bet you didn't know many view the biblical Song of Songs as the original source (though undoubtedly the psalmist, too, heard it from someone else) for the expression, "Really like your peaches want to shake your tree." "Your stature is like a palm-tree .. I will climb up into the palm-tree and take hold of the branches." [redacted] P.S. The quote you post of Faramir from the book, it sounds quite like the Faramir of the movie, only after the Osgilliath incident which, of course, is my point.
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04-02-2008, 10:24 AM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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You're just difficult, Jon S.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
04-02-2008, 10:38 AM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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04-02-2008, 10:59 AM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I evaluate LOTR the movie in the context of LOTR the text. I see LOTR in a formalist way. If it's not in the text, I don't add it in. This is for evaluation. As a person, I'm more interested in the potential for interpretation, but I consider that a separate activity. You can say "Gandalf reminds me of my grandfather, he was awesome" in relating to the text. But to say "Gandalf is intended to be the greatest of the Maiar" is begging the question, imo. It's a resort to authority and extra-textual.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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04-02-2008, 11:51 AM | #18 | ||
The Ñoldóran
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Jon, But that wasn't supposed to be Faramir after he had some silly "change-of-heart" after seeing Frodo offer a ring to a Nazgul (or whatever he did, I've only seen that movie a couple of times). That was supposed to be how Faramir was, without prodding.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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04-02-2008, 08:36 AM | #19 |
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Thanks for your response, Curufin - this is perhaps a good time to reemphasize explicitly what we would hope would be implicitly obvious that discussions like these are intended in a positive spirit of further enjoying Tolkien's works and being exposed to new and alternate viewpoints on them. You have been really cool throughout this thread in that respect, thanks again for it.
Now back to the substance. A bit part of our differing viewpoints concerning the book and films, it seems to me, is that you interpret many changes in the movies as "drastically altering what Tolkien meant to express" that, to me, do not at all affect a drastic alteration. Faramir is a perfect example. I agree with the author of the piece I referenced earlier that Faramir's essential nature did not change materially between the movie and the book. Rather, what changed were various circumstantial facts to which Faramir reacted. To me, those changes are in no way "drastic" relative to Tolkien's basic themes. What they are is cinematic. Likewise with the Elves joining in at Helms Deep. To you, that change eviscerated your interpretation of that battle, as best as I can construe it from your posts here, as a or the defining moment when men assumed their ascendancy in ME and established their independence from the need for inter-racial alliances to defend themselves. That's fine, if you want to interpret it that way. If everyone bet on the same horse, there wouldn't be horse races. Nor Entmoot threads. And both racing and forums would be the poorer for it. But for me, I just don't buy your interpretation of Helms Deep. To me, a key theme of the LOTR book was, and will always be, to emphasize the good in when people of different races bury old emnities and join together, based on common values, to oppose evil. That was a key theme of the decision at the council at Rivendell to establish the company of 9. It was a key theme in Tolkien describing elsewhere how dwarves, elves, and men all fought against Sauron and his forces in their own lands. This theme, to me, was buttressed, not undercut, when the elves arrived, in the movie, at Helms Deep. It was also cool as s-! In fact, when I saw the movie (twice), the elves arrival got the biggest audience reaction in the entire film. Be honest now - it was the same when you saw the film too, wasn't it? That's because, whatever else one may say about PJ, the man knows how to make a movie. There were numerous other references and scenes in the films that served, independent of Helms Deep, to reinforce the notion that the end of Sauron and the Ring meant the ascendancy of the race of man. This is why I repeat, for me, the glass is half full on the change there. I appreciate that, for you, the arrival of men at Helms Deep apparently negated the impact of these references and scenes. Different strokes for different folks.
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Don't curse the darkness - light a candle. Last edited by Jon S. : 04-02-2008 at 08:40 AM. |
04-02-2008, 12:40 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Because of PJ, Boyens, and Walsh's views of Men in general. It was stated several times in the movies from beginning to end. Opening narration: "The hearts of Men are easily corrupted." Elrond: "Men are weak." Aragorn about the Ring: "We can't wield it. No one can." None of these views of men were Tolkien's view, and this is just a small sampling of quotes, nevermind all the other "Elves and Ghosts bail out Men" scenes throughout the movies.
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