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02-25-2003, 12:43 PM | #61 | |
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But somehow it does seem that Elves got the bad side of the bargain. Humans seem to get the better part. But then again, don't parents usually tend to favour the youngest child? (I wonder what comments I will get from the mothers here on that one. )
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02-25-2003, 10:13 PM | #62 |
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The problem with analyzing this is that elves have an essential literary purpose-without them there is no mythos. The purpose of Tolkien's myth cycle is to create something coherant, ancient and truly mythlike. This effect is heightened if the stories are distanced by the use of superhuman creatures (as elves are) who eventually meet men, because it creates a further distance between us and the story. The Silmarillion is not simply the tale of a far off time, it is the chronicle of the Eldar, not mortals, and we are lucky to have a hold of it.
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02-26-2003, 08:22 PM | #63 |
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Ah, the long time that we waited for the Sil to be published. I still remember how excited I was.
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02-27-2003, 06:43 PM | #64 | |
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02-28-2003, 08:13 AM | #65 | |
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*jumps into conversation*
I don't think the Elves were created for a "purpose" like teaching Men or fighting Melkor or anything. If that were true, we would also have to assign a purpose to Men and to all of Arda. For what purpose did Eru create the world? IMO, existence has no purpose except to exist, to be, to bring forth beauty and happiness and other yummy things. I think Eru made the Elves "just because" - so that there would be something, and a very beautiful and wondrous thing it turned out to be. The same with Valar, Men, and the rest of the world. The question of why the Elves had to fade, however, remains. There are some indications in quotes such as: Quote:
- that the Earth could not support more than one of the races. Which would explain why we only have Men today, although it doesn't explain why Eru would have created it like that in the first place. But who knows the mind of a God? If we accept this as an explanation for the fading, one could say that Eru gave the Elves their time in Middle Earth, to be taken over by Men, so each has their turn. Elves and Men co-existed so that the Elder people could teach the Younger, but the ratio of strength was never equal - first the Elves were mightier, but the scales slowly tipped toward Men until Elves faded altogether. So will Men fade someday? Will a new race appear to be taught, growing stronger and multiplying until they rule Arda and Men have disappeared? P.S. Ruilen! You live in Eryn Vorn too? Which tree?
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02-28-2003, 09:02 AM | #66 | |
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When the music of the Ainur had ceased, Eru showed forth a vision of hte music they had just made, and the world was created because the Ainur desired what they saw in the vision to be real. Nice jump, FrodoFriend.
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02-28-2003, 09:45 AM | #67 |
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Just trying to make a splash.
Is there a quote to back up the thing about Eru creating the Children in response to Melkor? So in part we owe our existence to the Great Enemy . . . although I don't think Men have been doing that great of a job of healing Arda . . . Wait. Have I been talking as if I believe the Sil to be literal fact again?
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02-28-2003, 01:15 PM | #68 | |
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IIRC, the theme of the elves was before the discord, and the theme of men was after the discord, but I'm fuzzy on it - I'll try to check. Also, I know near the end of his life, JRRT changed things around a bit in regard to the themes and other things (in Morgoth's Ring - where he experimented with the 'correct astronomy' model, which included the sun and moon BEFORE the two trees, etc.) I'll see what I can dig up, or does anyone else have refs?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-28-2003, 04:10 PM | #69 |
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Morgoth's ring I know, has bits on the "scientific mythology" specifically the astronomy, but it also has a bit on orcs and men, which may be a useful reference.
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02-28-2003, 04:16 PM | #70 | ||
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03-01-2003, 06:33 AM | #71 |
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Hmmm . . . so how much of this did the Valar know? Mandos apparently knew everything (or thought he did), and Manwe probably had a good idea, but what about the others? If they knew that they had to teach Elves to teach Men to heal the world, then it wouldn't have been selfishness to take the Elves away from Middle Earth to Valinor.
We were talking about why Elves were needed - for that matter, why were Men? Elves could easily have been created to heal Arda themselves, and you could dispense with the whole Younger People deal. And where do the Ents come in? Were they simply created as tree shepherds, and have no larger role?
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03-01-2003, 10:13 AM | #72 |
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Ahem........I'd like to think the Valar did not have to "teach" every little thing to the elves, and the elves did not have to "teach" men how to live their lives either. I like to think that Eru made his children (elves and men) with gifts of their own (intelligence, appreciation of beauty, work ethic, desire to be loved, survival instinct, etc). These qualities could help "heal" Arda. Though the Valar sang the music, the third theme's two musics were "utterly at variance". I struggle to decide if the theme that was loud and vain, endlessly repeated with little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes which seemed to drown the other music by the violence of it's own voice to be the music of "the children" (Both elves and men) , or of men only. (it sounds like men to me! ) The triumphant notes (of this music) were taken "by the other" {WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!! are "the other" the valar taking from the children, or the elves taking from the men? } and woven into it's own solomn pattern. Anyway, is the third theme just the music of elves and men, or of Valor and "Elves and Men", together as children?
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03-01-2003, 10:47 AM | #73 |
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Yes, I don't think Men needed to be teached how to heal Arda, it was inherent in them, because their spirits are not bound to the world like the spirits of the Elves. It was part of the gift of death from Ilúvatar, methinks.
Lizra, great way of interpreting the Music, which part was the Elves' theme and which part was Men? I've never thought of it that way. I would say the 'soft and sweet' was of the Elves, and the 'load and vain' and 'endlessly repeated' was of Men. 'The triumphant notes' I think were taken from the Elves' theme and wowen into Men's, and it could be pointing at the Elvish blood that were inserted into the race of Men by the union of Tour and Idril, Beren and Lúthien, and Aragorn and Arwen.
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03-01-2003, 01:14 PM | #74 |
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Wow, I guess we have some big differences of opinions here. I just assumed it was like this:
I always thought the beautiful one was all of the music that came from Ilúvatar - the original one, plus the 2 in response to Melkor, and all 3 blended together in an incredible symphony. I thought the vain and loud one was all the music that came from Melkor.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-01-2003 at 01:15 PM. |
03-01-2003, 02:48 PM | #75 |
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Could be! That sounds good! Do the starts and stops have anything to do with the ages, or is really all about Melkor? (blea!)
(In the third theme) The "deep, wide and beautiful" music's beauty chiefly came from an immeasurable sorrow! (that's no fun! how does beauty come from sorrow! It doesn't for me. ) The loud violent music tried to drown the other. Now , I am confused again...."And it (violent music) essayed to drown the other (sad, beautiful) music by the violence of it's voice, but it seemed that it's most triumphant notes were taken by the other (sad beautiful) and woven into it's own solemn pattern." So did Iluvatar somehow take the violent music's (Melkor's) best notes and put them in the beautiful music, just to show Melkor that "no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me", and also to show Melkor that he was just an instrument, not a maker? It says the children (elves and men) came with the third theme, but none of the Ainur had a part in their making. What does this mean if the Ainur made the music? I guess I'm nit picking because it says (right after the "stolen" line given to Galadriel in FoTR movie!) "Yet some things there are that they (Ainiur) cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; ..... anyway, the themes having only to do with good and bad, not the children makes good sense Rian. ( evil has too big of a role in this tale, if you ask me! )
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03-01-2003, 03:15 PM | #76 | |
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03-01-2003, 08:05 PM | #77 | |
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03-02-2003, 02:34 AM | #78 |
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Artanis - I'm glad that made sense to you
Lizra - I think Eärniel gives a great example about beauty in sorrow, esp. with Húrin - his faithfulness in the face of torment is something that is beautiful; does that make sense? I think that sorrow does NOT automatically bring beauty; but it's a person's RESPONSES to sorrow that may be beautiful (or not...). Don't you think that Frodo's journey - his faithfulness, steadfastness, determination - is beautiful, although surrounded by great sorrow? Bilbo's story is cute and fun - Frodo's is magnificent and beautiful, and the beauty was brought out through the sorrow, and the beauty triumphed over the sorrow. Although Frodo was not left unscarred, still, the scars were beautiful in a sense, because of how he got them. Does that make sense? In a this-world example , I was in the hospital for a month with pregnancy difficulties with child #2, and our friends and family did so many beautiful things in how they supported and helped and encouraged us - meals, phone calls, cards, taking care of our other son - love in action, which was beautiful.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-02-2003, 09:46 AM | #79 |
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Yes, I understand how you can see "some" beauty in sorrow, (if you are forced to, by unfortunate circumstance) but I prefer regular, plain and simple beauty myself. I feel the "beauty in sorrow" is more of a second generation type thing, looking for the silver lining type of beauty . To have the "main theme" of the last melody come "cheifly from an immeasurable sorrow" is frankly, "over the top" for me! (It also makes me angry! ) As a casual observer, I want to say Eru erred in giving Melkor so much. (IMO) It does not make me happy! Of course it makes for an unbeleivably moving story, but I am beginning to understand why I have often felt that The Hobbit was my favorite story! I have had too much of that "sorrowful beauty" in my life, and I don't like it!
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03-02-2003, 11:45 AM | #80 | |
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It is funny that The Hobbit was your favorite. It was my least favorite of the stories. |
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