11-21-2003, 06:37 PM | #61 | |
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-22-2003, 12:00 AM | #62 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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LOL, yes, the "arose" is not from LotR but from the published Silmarillion and from Morgoth's Ring. It does not refer alone to Durin's Bane but to all the surviving Balrogs after the assault on Angband. Durin's Bane was all but certainly among them.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-22-2003, 01:26 AM | #63 | |||
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-22-2003, 03:13 AM | #64 |
Hobbit
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"Ok, now that passge sounds like the wings were only used as a metaphor .... Now, with this passage, if he meant it in a figurative sense, he would have used it as a metaphor or written as a simile like he did in the first passage. Here, that doesn't happen, it says clearly "its wings were spread from wall to wall". It doesn't say "its shadow was like wings spread from wall to wall"."
He doesn't have to. He already made it clear that the "wings" were figurative wings of shadow in the earlier passage. No need to reiterate that. Why would a professional writer like Tolkien, a person who loves and labors over every detail of language (sometimes painfully so), mix his metaphors like that, using both figurative and literal versions of the same word? He wouldn't. "You need to read other quotes posted above, the "arose" is from something else, as you can read above, not from that same thing you keep talking about." I have. I used quotes around the word because of how *I* used the word, not as a quotation. In other words, the word doesn't mean 'arose' as in flying, it means 'arose' as in rising up from the underground. So the quotes were added to show that, IMO, the meaning is NOT as previously suggested by others. "Also, to say "flying" is definitively used as flee is pretty closed minded man, cuz there are other parts where Tolkien is speaking of winged creatures and he says "flying"..." But does he follow the word "flying" in those other situations with the word "hiding"? No, he doesn't. You have to consider the context of the individual situation. Morgoth, the most powerful evil being in existence, has been defeated, and his minions are fleeing in terror. Of that there is no doubt. So clearly any use of phrases like 'flying from Thangorodrim' followed by a description of how the creatures then hid from the forces of good for centuries is not meant to describe flight with wings. And pointing out that Tolkien used the same word differently in a completely unrelated situation means very little unless it shows a pattern of language usage. |
11-22-2003, 04:25 AM | #65 | |
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-22-2003, 07:32 AM | #66 | ||
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Grendel, Tolkien wasn't a professional writer; he was a professional linguist/philologist. To the best of my knowledge, he never had one ounce of "professional" training in writing a story. Which, IMO, is one reason for the beauty. Once you make it professional, you take from it the quality of art.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-22-2003, 11:39 AM | #67 |
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I certainly agree that "flying" in "Flying from the ruin of Thangorodrim" was meant to be the participle of "flee." But, I don't think anyone can be sure that "its wings" were made of shadow, illusion, or bone and sinew. What are Balrogs made of, anyhow? The action quite obviously was meant to intimidate, like a cat puffing itself out, and that in itself indicates that he knew he was up against a foe worthy of his steel. It is interesting that the Balrog concentrates completely on Gandalf, ignoring the Ring. I take that to mean that it recognized a Maia of the opposite persuasion, and its hate was aroused.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-22-2003, 01:49 PM | #68 |
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IIRC, Balrogs are said to be creatures of flame and shadow; so wouldn't a balrogs wings of shadow be as much a part of it as anything else?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-22-2003, 02:16 PM | #69 |
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Here is another thing to think about. Almost everytime Balrgos are spoken about, there is some mention of wings, whether wings is said or some wording that could make it sound as if it might be flying or having wings. I just find that to be strange. I mean if they didn't have wings, then why are they referred to in such respects, ya know?
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
11-22-2003, 02:54 PM | #70 |
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I agree with Gwaihir that Balrogs were creatures of flame and shadow. After all, they were never Incarnated, that we know of. If that is taken to be so, then Balrogs definitely had wings.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-23-2003, 04:31 AM | #71 | ||||
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11-23-2003, 11:38 AM | #72 |
Elven Warrior
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Gwaimir and Dunedain have outlined the definitive case for wings. The fact the creature is made of flame and shadow makes the wing reference on the bridge a slam dunk. Also, when the creature falls off the bridge Tolkien says "It's shadow plunged down and vanished"
As for Dunadain’s observation; am I to believe that: 1. flying from Thangorodrim, 2. and now swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. 3. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm. 4. and its wings were spread from wall to wall You are seriously arguing that Tolkien is attempting to paint a mental picture in the reader’s mind of a wingless, land-bound creature incapable of flight? |
11-23-2003, 12:26 PM | #73 | |||||
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AROSE "Now the Lady [Galadriel] arose, and Celeborn led them back to the hythe." FotR, Farewell to Lorien "At length they [Aragorn and company] arose, and took their leave of the Lady, and thanked her for her care, and went to their rest." RotK, The Passing of the Grey Company PASSED OVER "Of their [Isildur and company] journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad, and on northward into the wide and empty lands south of Greenwood the Great." UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields "A short way back the road had bent a little northward and the stretch that they [Frodo and Sam] had passed over was now screened from sight." RotK, The Land of Shadow "Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orome himself was come..." Silm, Of the Ruin of Beleriand TEMPEST "Then the Orcs screamed, waving spear and sword, and shooting a cloud of arrows at any that stood revealed upon the battlements; and the men of the Mark amazed looked out, as it seemed to them, upon a great dark field of corn, tossed by a tempest of war, and every ear glinted with barbed light." TT, Helm's Deep "Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder." BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin "Then tumult awoke, a tempest wild in rage roaring that rocked the walls; consuming madness seized on Morgoth" LoB, Second Version of the Children of Hurin ~216 So it is by no means clear that wings were intended in the Hithlum passage. Quote:
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As I said before, go to the Encyclopedia of Arda and read the articles there. If you remain unconvinced, then there is little point in talking about it any further here. |
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11-23-2003, 01:48 PM | #74 |
Elven Warrior
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I have read many articles on this debate, and most read like your post, (it depends on what the definition of is is). I also noticed you did not address “winged speed”or Gwaimir’s point.
Perhaps someone can post an example, but winged speed is an odd way to describe movement without wings. As for Gwaimir's point. Since the creature is (in part) made of shadow, I find it far more likely that Tolkien is describing the creature spreading out something (shadowy) that is wing like, which once fully spread and visible, are indeed just that, wings made of shadow spreading from wall to wall. If Tolkien is indeed describing a wingless/flightless creature than he has (inadvertently) misled the majority of his readers by his continued references to things relating to flight while describing this terrestrial creature. A simple image search of Balrog on the internet will show well above 90% of illustrations of Balrogs contain wings. I think that probably reflects quite accurately the number of readers who take that image away from the text. It doesn’t mean it is correct, but it does show (albeit unscientifically) that it is the most common perspective, which would also, I believe, support the belief that that was the author's intent. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 11-23-2003 at 02:08 PM. |
11-23-2003, 02:20 PM | #75 | ||
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As for "winged speed", there is no need to address it. The word 'winged' is an adjective in that sentence. It is not a noun. It is simply describing the speed. Obviously the intent is to show that the Balrogs were very fast. If he had said "slowly they arose, and they passed with slithering speed over Hithlum" we would understand that Balrogs were quite slow, but we would not be led to believe that they had no arms and legs and must crawl like a snake. It's called a metaphor. Quote:
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11-23-2003, 03:05 PM | #76 |
Elven Warrior
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Your explanation of “winged speed” speaks for itself. It depends what the definition of is is.
To your second point: The only failure of logic is not understanding the difference between a subjective description and physics. Either Tolkien accidentally used too many flight related words when describing Balrogs (which resulted in the majority of readers forming an incorrect mental image), or Balrogs have wings. That is my point. It is my opinion that the latter is more likely correct than the former. |
11-23-2003, 04:06 PM | #77 | |
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-23-2003, 04:11 PM | #78 | ||
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 11-23-2003 at 04:16 PM. |
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11-23-2003, 04:21 PM | #79 |
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My biggest thing is, as I said above, why would Tolkien constantly speak of Balrogs on the level of winged like creatures. I think it's fair to say we can all agree there are a substantial amount of passages where Tolkien speaks of Balrogs and either refers to flight in some way or wings in some way, whether they are figurative or literal. The point is, the two seem to always accompany each other when Tolkien speaks of them. I mean if his descriptions always go back to that, and it doesn't just happen once or twice. There are many other forms of descriptions in writing he could have used outside of those, but yet everytime he goes back to them, makes you wonder why...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
11-23-2003, 05:18 PM | #80 | |||||
Hobbit
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"It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there are at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation." Of course they don't know for sure, but they clearly favor the 'no wings' position. Your attempt to show their position as neutral or completely undecided is debating in bad faith. Quote:
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