01-11-2003, 06:25 AM | #61 | |
the Shrike
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01-11-2003, 06:50 AM | #62 | ||||||||
The Original Corruptor
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01-11-2003, 06:57 AM | #63 | |
The Original Corruptor
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Some define "God" with incompatible attributes. In the same way that an object that is both a square and a circle cannot exist in reality, proposed deities with definitions that involve illogic cannot exist. You didn't really need clarification, did you? |
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01-11-2003, 08:17 AM | #64 | |
the Shrike
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01-11-2003, 08:34 AM | #65 |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Look at all these posts!
Be back to this thread tonight. BTW anyone have a link to a decent online bible? |
01-11-2003, 09:09 AM | #66 | ||||||
The Original Corruptor
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Last edited by Andúril : 01-11-2003 at 09:17 AM. |
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01-11-2003, 09:20 AM | #67 | |
The Original Corruptor
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01-11-2003, 12:13 PM | #68 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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01-11-2003, 12:26 PM | #69 | |
The Original Corruptor
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01-11-2003, 12:30 PM | #70 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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To recognize that something is beyond your understanding does not require understanding, in and of itself; rather, it requires the lack thereof, and acceptance that there are things greater than you in the world.
Anyway, which specific "conflicting" traits do you refer to?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-11-2003, 01:06 PM | #71 | ||
The Original Corruptor
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You do realize that those points listed above are assumptions, don't you? Since you can't understand your deity, you can't know if those points are true. Let's try one. Explain how you know that your god is "an incredibly vast being". Make sure that you include the premise "God cannot be understood" in your argument. Quote:
Last edited by Andúril : 01-11-2003 at 01:14 PM. |
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01-11-2003, 03:13 PM | #72 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm sorry, I'm not really understanding what your saying up there.
But about the second part; God is All-Powerful, but He binds Himself by rules He has created, such as not lying.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-11-2003, 04:06 PM | #73 | ||
the Shrike
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My definitions were culled off an online dictionary, in conjuction with an anthro text book. ***** Main Entry: athe·ism Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m Function: noun Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god Date: 1546 1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS 2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity Main Entry: be·lief Pronunciation: b&-'lEf Function: noun Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan Date: 12th century 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing 2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group 3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence Main Entry: ide·ol·o·gy Pronunciation: "I-dE-'ä-l&-jE, "i- Variant(s): also ide·al·o·gy /-'ä-l&-jE, -'a-/ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -gies Etymology: French idéologie, from idéo- ideo- + -logie -logy Date: 1813 1 : visionary theorizing 2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program From: Merriam-Webster dictionary online.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 01-11-2003 at 04:27 PM. |
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01-11-2003, 04:24 PM | #74 | ||
The Original Corruptor
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You propose that "God" is inconceivable, and the reasons for this are that he "is an incredibly vast being", and is "so vastly above and beyond us". Surely you realize that "God" has become conceivable, since you know or understand something about him? If you really cannot understand "God", how could you possibly know that he "is an incredibly vast being", and is "so vastly above and beyond us"? Quote:
The term "all-powerful" refers to strong omnipotence - the ability to perform any describable (syntactically possible) action. An entity who is all-powerful can do all things. The pool of abilities that are open to such a being include such illogical things as creating a vegetable that is both fully an apple and granadilla at the same time. In light of this, the concept of weak omnipotence was adopted: the ability to perform all actions without extending to illogical scenarios. A weakly omnipotent being cannnot create a vegetable that is both fully an apple and granadilla at the same time. A strongly omnipotent being can lie. A weakly omnipotent being's pool of abilities depends on
It is clear that you are talking about strong omnipotence (unless you actually meant "God is kinda All-Powerful").[list=1][*]If God is all-powerful, then he can lie.[*]God cannot lie.[*]Therefore, God is not all-powerful.[/list=1]If additional premise a: "God is all-powerful" is included in the syllogism, then "God" becomes an illogical concept. Weak omnipotence can help you out. Last edited by Andúril : 01-11-2003 at 06:28 PM. |
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01-11-2003, 05:15 PM | #75 | ||||
The Original Corruptor
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Come on BoP! You know that strong atheism isn't the only type of atheism - why do you continue to use such a blanket label? Quote:
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See here for more info. |
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01-11-2003, 06:16 PM | #76 |
The Buddy Rabbit
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I'll have a strong Atheist with cream and sugar please..
You folks are really getting down to the brass-tacks here
Complicated business this Christianity (or lack thereof) Pops off to read some of the Bible........ta for the link Anduril |
01-11-2003, 06:37 PM | #77 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I already told you; realizing that something cannot be understood is not really understanding it. The two cannot be reconciled. Recognizing that something is above and beyond you does not make it on the same level as you.
As I stated before; God has the power to do anything, but He binds Himself by certain rules. And also, as I have stated before, God cannot be understood by humankind.
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01-11-2003, 06:47 PM | #78 | ||
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Why not address my points? Quote:
Don't you see how illogical the concept of strong omnipotence is? It's ironic, really. You state that "God cannot be understood", yet you understand that God (who cannot be understood), is strongly omnipotent. Last edited by Andúril : 01-11-2003 at 06:50 PM. |
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01-11-2003, 08:43 PM | #79 |
Elf Lord
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What a fascinating thread, with wonderfully provocative posts. However, I have a question that maybe one of the Christian mooters can answer?
Mahatma Gandhi said: "There is nothing in the world that would keep me from professing Christianity or any other faith, the moment I felt the truth of and the need for it. Where there is fear, there is no religion...If I could call myself, say, a Christian, or a Mussalman, with my own interpretation of the bible or the Koran, I should not hesitate to call myself either. For then Hihdu, Christian and Mussalman would be synonymous terms. I do believe that in the other world there are neither Hindus, nor Christians nor Mussalmans. There all are judged not according to their labels, or professions, but according to their actions, irrespective of their professions. During our earthly existence there will always be these labels. I, therefore, prefer to retain the label of my forefathers so long as it does not cramp my growth and does not debar me from assimilating all that is good anywhere else." Now, since it appears that he didn't believe in the Christian god exclusively, should one assume that he is now in hell? (anyone interested in more info on Gandhi, ck out www.mkgandhi.org)
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01-11-2003, 09:03 PM | #80 | |||
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There are things that are a matter of opinion ("I really like this dessert!"), and there are things that have several answers ("which of these letters are vowels? a, b, c, d, e, f"), and there are things that by their nature are either true or untrue ("The God of the Bible created the world".) I believe that if you think it thru, what you're really saying is something like the various gods (and perhaps an empty spot for the atheists ) are all sitting somewhere, anxiously waiting to see if anyone will believe in them. If I believe in the Christian God, then He will be freed up to interact with me; if you believe that you will be reincarnated, then you will, even though the Christian God objects to this concept. This idea basically says that each person is their own god. Instead of this idea, I believe that it makes sense that there is an absolute truth about the way things are in the universe, and that the Bible describes this absolute truth. So, IOW, the Christian God exists whether or not people believe in Him. In the Bible, it says that God desires that all people would be saved, and that no one will have an excuse for not believing in Him (because He is absolutely just and fair); that He reveals Himself to people through nature and through the moral law written on people's hearts and through the witness of believers (like some of us here at Entmoot ) and things like that. One character attribute of God that is stated over and over is that He is just. The old complaint of "well, what of those people on a desert island somewhere that never heard of Jesus? How can they be saved?" is not a valid complaint, for Abraham (who came WAY before Jesus showed up on earth) was stated in the Bible to have been made righteous (which is what 'saved' means) through his faith. The Bible states that everyone who is saved is saved [by faith, through Jesus, but it is not limited to just repeating the "sinner's prayer" from some pamphlet (I think it would be a fairly safe bet to say Abraham didn't say the sinner's prayer from a pamphlet but we have it on God's authority that he is saved.) Quote:
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