05-31-2006, 09:42 PM | #61 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-01-2006, 05:26 AM | #62 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I think, that was because neither Gandalf, nor Aragorn, nor any of the "big people" were to go to Mt Doom according to the original plan. And there HAD to be an original plan agreed upon by the Wise. I think, at Path Galen, or even earlier, the Fellowship had to be split: 4 hobbits going to Mordor, and 5 Big people to Gondor. |
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06-01-2006, 08:03 AM | #63 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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06-02-2006, 12:42 AM | #64 | |
Elf Lord
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I think,that it's because ,according to decision of the Wise, after getting out of Lorien's domain, the Ring had to dissapear. As I said before , the plan did not work out because of Boromir, whom I consider the most valiant person. My favorite portrayals of Boromir made by Polish artist Catherine Karina Chmiel. In her works he lives, has charcter, feelings, and not like depicted by some artists a big bore with ridiculous horned helmet. |
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06-02-2006, 01:36 AM | #65 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-02-2006, 10:52 PM | #66 | |
Elf Lord
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Why THEY had to clean the mess created by Elves? And why everyone else in the Fellowship, even Gandalf, whose mission was exclusively in aiding in Sauron's downfall, were free to drop out from the quest any time they want, and only the hobbits has to carry on the burden. What kind of bullshit Elrond was hanging on big trusty hobbit's ears, profoundly declaring:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow") ? Who desided on this "fate"? No, it's no conspiracy, it's a very logical politic, a customary Elve's disposition to do theirs job by somebody's else hands. |
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06-03-2006, 03:16 AM | #67 | |||||||
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06-03-2006, 08:45 AM | #68 | |
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"[T]hat is not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." |
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06-03-2006, 10:48 AM | #69 | |||||||
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Also needed were things such as planning, courage, and effort. Quote:
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06-03-2006, 10:59 AM | #70 |
Elven Warrior
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Another thought as to why the hobbits - perhaps it was about time they contributed something back to the other peoples of Middle Earth who for centuries did everything from absorbing the brunt of the evil in the world to actively guarding their borders so that the Hobbits could enjoy their blissful, ignorant peace. (Plus, if you go by the majority viewpoint, the Hobbits were, biologically, essentially a branch of man anyways, right?)
Last edited by Jon S. : 06-03-2006 at 11:01 AM. |
06-03-2006, 11:16 AM | #71 | |
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06-03-2006, 01:42 PM | #72 | ||
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In the matter of the Rings, the Noldor were guilty as hell. More so than with the Silmarils. Celebrimbor, a Calaquendi Noldorin Elf, made all the Rings, except the One. It he didn't make the 19, there would have been no One. After Sauron's plan with the Ruling Ring had been revealed, Celebrimbor and Galadriel had all the 19 Rings in their possession for almost 100 years. They knew they should have destroyed the 19, but they "failed to find the strength" (UT). Moral strength, mind you, they did have physical means, but Celebrimbor became as enamoured with his creation, as Feanor, his granddad, with Silmarils. And Galadriel so loved the shiny little ringy that Celebrimbor presented her with...And she so wished to make a little realm for herself that would resemble Valinor. Selfish? Incredibly. They put the whole World in peril for their baubles. Now they could have hidden the 7 and the 9, as they had hidden the Three. They had 100 years to do so. They could have sent the Rings to Valinor, or sent them to the Havens. No. - too lazy for that. All the Rings, but the Three, were still kept in Ost-in Edhil, when Sauron finally decided to attack. And the Mirdain were beaten of course, as well as Gil-Galad and Elrond, who had little to do with the Ring-Project. Who saved the Elves then? Right, the King of Numenor, Tar-Minastir, who sent Numenoreans to war for the first time in 1500 years. How many died? Not a few, believe me. Little did Minastir suspect that his allies the Elves had betrayed all the Free Peoples of ME already, and now were trying to hide behind Men's backs. What did the King get for his aid? Three of his close relatives were ensnared by the Rings and became nazgul. Numenor itself fell under the Shadow. Thank you very much. At the Downfall, the evil Maia Sauron finally perished. The whole of Numenor perished with him, but at least Men believed they saw the last of him. Now, in about a hundred years he is back and attacks Gondor. How so? Because he has the Ring. Thanks again to Celebrimbor and his friendship with Annatar. Now the Elves finally decided to help, probably because now they were led by the least guilty of them - Gil-Galad. The Last Alliance also cost many lives. And then Elves stopped helping. They knew that because of their Ring-Scheme Sauron was bound to re-appear again. He reappeared - right across the River from Lorien and not too far from Imladris. Still they waited and did nothing. And most sailed to Valinor, leaving Men to deal with the consequences of their faults. Then, when the White counsil decided to attack (or threatened to attack) Dol Guldur, all they did was to sent Sauron harass the unsuspecting Gondor. Who cares for Men anyway? And that was only the Ring-Project. How about the Palantiri? Another set of Elvish baubles, perilous for Men. How many men's lives would have been saved if there were no Seeing Stone at Amon-Sul? Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain warred over it constantly. Probably Fornost wouldn't have been so attractive for the Witch-King, if it didn't house two stones. Minas Ithil wouldn't have been attacked, Denethor would have remained sane. Saruman would not have become a traitor. Thank you, Elves, for this gift also. Now, let us face the facts: the strength Sauron gained in the Second Age and his very existence in the Third Age is Elven fault. Yet they left Men to deal with the consequences. |
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06-03-2006, 02:31 PM | #73 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-03-2006, 02:52 PM | #74 | ||||
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06-03-2006, 04:11 PM | #75 | |||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Last edited by Gordis : 06-03-2006 at 04:13 PM. |
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06-03-2006, 05:20 PM | #76 | ||||||||
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06-04-2006, 03:18 PM | #77 | ||||
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No, they were not resistant, but more naive, easier to manipulate.They were falling under Ring's influence with the same rate as Men. Look what have happened to Smeagol, and how fast Frodo became drained out and posessive with "prec-c-cious". The most resistant race were dwarves. But try to pull a dwarf out of his mountain in the name of the world's saving from Sauron's total dominion!! They did not care, they were content as they were, and wouldn't move a finger to aid elves. Quote:
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... " "But we want to go on an adventure!".. "O'key! Your reasons are very convincing.You will go - elves stay " So, whose words does not hold the water? Quote:
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Let’s not forget that history of Arda is an authentic.Tolkien did not create Arda, this world existed before in legends and epos of the Northern part of Europe. By his own believe his work was a co-creation with divine power of the Creator himself : “a sudden vision or perhaps a perception which at once turned itself into pictorial form in my mind” and “all of the sudden I realized what it was: the very thing that I have been trying to write about and explain”. But an authenticy does not mean an accuracy.On his writing of the book Tolkien not once comments that even to him some sides of his world not completely clear and understandable, it sometimes " getting quite out of hand... and progress towards quite unforeseen goals" . In variations of his texts he himself is trying to figure out illogical parts, representing himself not as an author, but as a tolkienist-researcher. So, I absolutely agree with Gordis that his letters and autocommentaries shouldn’t be accepted as a canon, (which is so pleasing to Landroval’s heart), but as an opportunity to analyse the events from different aspects, and make out more probable and less irrational explanations, which is called a historical way of research. And, as we all know, an interpretation of the history depends on the view of the chronicler, and it up to us to accept it as it was written, or, by analising inconsistencies, to find out the more real internal explanations of the events. . |
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06-04-2006, 04:09 PM | #78 | |||||||||
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06-04-2006, 05:30 PM | #79 | |||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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If Sauron hoped to became more powerful, after completing the Ring-Project, it was because via the One, he planned to gain access to the power of all the other 19 Rings, wielded by others, even those made without his aid. I believe that Celebrimbor and other Mirdain, when making the Rings, also had to set aside part of their innate Power into the Rings. That is that additional power Sauron was craving. That's why Sauron was so frustrated when the Elves took off their rings - Sauron remained with only the power he had originally. It was vital to him for other Rings to be wielded - just to have additional power. Another reason was the possibility of ensnaring and corruption of the wielders, of course. Quote:
And, as for Morgoth's scorn, do you think that Sauron, having cowardly surrendered his stronghold to a single female helped by a dog, saved himself from Morgoth's "disapproval"? I would say, by running away, he only made his case worse in the eyes of his Lord. What Sauron was really afraid of, was being left a mere powerless spirit: the very thing that has happened to him at the end of the Third Age. The same thing happened to other embodied Maiar, when slain: to Saruman, to the Barlog, most probably, as well. It would have happened to Gandalf, but for the intervention from High-Up. Quote:
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Gandald admits he will not be able to carry the Ring to Mt.Doom and destroy it. The temptation to use it will be too strong. So why was Frodo chosen? Because he was weak and not ambitious and the wish to wield the Ring would not be too strong - that is the core of the "famous hobbit resistance". Quote:
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What do you think Gollum would have done, if he hadn't slipped? The nazgul would appear at Sammath Naur and block the exit. What was Gollum's only way to guard his Precious? He would have jumped into the fire, IMHO, his love for Frodo having nothing to do with it, and his love for the Precious - everything. But dying still clutching the Ring is NOT the same as throwing it into the Fire. Far from it. Last edited by Gordis : 06-04-2006 at 05:32 PM. |
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06-04-2006, 08:26 PM | #80 | ||
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