What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

No, Butterbeer, I am afraid you are wrong. The WK would have been VERY EASY to stop. Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

And I think that even "IF" was impossible. I am doubtful that the WK would have been able to master the One without his own ring. Without their rings, the nazgul were "incomplete", part of their power contained in the 9 Rings. Far away from the rings they were much weaker. And I doubt that even the possession of the One could have shielded the WK from the primary control of his nazgul ring.

Anyway, Sauron (who knew all about the Rings) has preferred sending the Ringwraiths to the Shire instead of sending any mortals, even very loyal mortals (Mouth etc.). Therefore he believed that the WK was an impossible candidate for the new Ringlord.

IMO, the minute Sauron took the 9 rings from the nazgul, they lost all hope to ever be free in ME. They could not even die, as long as the 9 existed and had power. Therefore they tried hard to escape beyond by "helping" to destroy the One.

Well you seem very set in your ways for someone taking an investigative historical perspective on Middle earth!

This is not to say your'e wrong: you are much better read than me (and the bulk of my reading was long ago anyway):for me this is just a what if question but i find it odd in terms of all we appear to know of the rings of power and the heirachy Sauron intended and the avowed purpose and powers of the One, that the witch king (IF) mastered the One containing sauron's greater part of power, and wearing and wielding the One ring, the master ring, the ring to rule all the other rings,

A) would suddenly die wearing and master of THE ONE because a lesser ring was destroyed

B) IF the WK had mastered the One he controls the nine ( i think you would be pushed to argue against that? - he says tongue in cheek)
and also if sauron is wearing any of the rings controls him through the rings:if he takes off all his rings then the WK would be too powerful wearing and wiedling the full mught of the One and presumably with full control of the other 8 mounted Nazgula and their Morgul troops could quite possibly stop Suaron destroying the Nine rings anyway.

IMHO poeple like the Mouth and most other captains in Mordor would very soon see which way the wind is blowing and re-align to support the Ring lord: sauron would have (potentially) big trouble destroying the Witch King's ring: but as i said above i believe (and this is the BIG IF) IF he had mastered the One: destroying the WK's ring would be ineffective: else what power does the One have???

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Sauron had only to make a short trip to Orodruin and throw the Witch-King's ring there. Then the WK would die - go off to Mandos and beyond - forever. The nazgul existed while the 9 Rings existed.

I don't think so.The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. In a way like a hacker sends a virus to control different PC's systems: they will be completely screwed up and respond to his manipulation, but the destruction of commanding program doesn't automatically means that in the same way we can eliminate "a worm" in all infected PC. Each system will respond only if it will be treated in accordance with manufacturer's design.
I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.

Originally Posted by gordis

Isn't it ironic that the ringwraiths were perhaps the only children of Illuvatar to finally see death as a Gift?

Yeh! Proves once more the old proverb:"Beware what you wish for, you might get it!"

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Olmer]I don't think so.The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. In a way like a hacker sends a virus to control different PC's systems: they will be completely screwed up and respond to his manipulation, but the destruction of commanding program doesn't automatically means that in the same way we can eliminate "a worm" in all infected PC. Each system will respond only if it will be treated in accordance with manufacturer's design.
I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.



If the nine rings were not destroyed with the destruction of the One: would they then be free and wholesome to use? maybe the nine (OR EIGHT) WRAITHS became in-corporal, the rings dropped off and Aragorn ended up wearing all nine in his long reign?
That would have worked for Arwen maybe?
obviously Aragorn didn't: but would he have given the chance?
With the one destoyed and the nine freed (If thats the case) would the nine have given longer life (all nine?)

Sorry Gordis couldn't think of any more easy questions for you just now!

What do you think Olmer (IF) the Witch King could master the One hypothetically could he overcome Sauron?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

1.If the nine rings were not destroyed with the destruction of the One: would they then be free and wholesome to use?
With the one destoyed and the nine freed (If thats the case) would the nine have given longer life (all nine?)

2.(IF) the Witch King could master the One hypothetically could he overcome Sauron?

IMHO:
1. No. The Rings got corrupted and can be undone by the maker, who was not Sauron.The rings will continue to bring the damage to anyone who will wear them, but also, in the mean time ,they will enhance the bearer's natural abilities, which means cleverness, understanding, skill to command people without ordering them and, of course, longer life..
2. I think, as gordis already mentioned, WK assessed the situation realistically. This why he never went for the One ,even at the time when it has been in the close proximity.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There was also the Dead of Dunharrow who would have looked at it that way.
What do you think happened to them after they died? They were evil and had served the shadow. Would the same things happen to the Easterlings and Haradrim?

[Butterbeer]

i think the dead of Dunharrow found peace: they broke a specific tryst with Elendil (or Isildur anyway one of the two) and were cursed: they were then held to have fulfilled they're oath by the heir of Isildur by fighting in the War of the ring: and thus were granted peace: its a bit hard on the whole people though to be held accountable to the singular decision of the King: not a great vote in favour of the Monarchy this one if you were one of the innocent un-dead etc!


BTW: Gordis & Olmer: ok on the WK, i can see why he didn't: my question was hypothetically put: it was if he did, what do you reckon his chance would have been? : if in North when acquired it and could master it reasonably quickly?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I find it odd in terms of all we appear to know of the rings of power and the heirachy Sauron intended and the avowed purpose and powers of the One, that the witch king (IF) mastered the One containing sauron's greater part of power, and wearing and wielding the One ring, the master ring, the ring to rule all the other rings,
A) would suddenly die wearing and master of THE ONE because a lesser ring was destroyed
B) IF the WK had mastered the One he controls the nine ( i think you would be pushed to argue against that? - he says tongue in cheek)
and also if sauron is wearing any of the rings controls him through the rings:if he takes off all his rings then the WK would be too powerful wearing and wiedling the full mught of the One and presumably with full control of the other 8 mounted Nazgula and their Morgul troops could quite possibly stop Suaron destroying the Nine rings anyway.
IMHO poeple like the Mouth and most other captains in Mordor would very soon see which way the wind is blowing and re-align to support the Ring lord: sauron would have (potentially) big trouble destroying the Witch King's ring: but as i said above i believe (and this is the BIG IF) IF he had mastered the One: destroying the WK's ring would be ineffective: else what power does the One have???

I am sorry , Butterbeer, if I am too pushy, and I really think most of your arguments are quite well-researched and thought-provoking.

A) I really do believe that the WK will die if his ring is destroyed or rendered powerless by the destruction of the One. Here is my reasoning:
The bearers of the Three did not die when their rings became powerless - but they were Elves or maiar, immortal beings all the same. Bilbo has aged immediately and drastically after the destruction of the One, because he regained his real age - 129 years, very old for a hobbit but not unnaturally so. I believe Gollum would have died anyway when the ring was destroyed, because he would become 600-years old hobbit - that means a dead hobbit. If the WK never had a Ring, he would have been dead for 4000 years already. It was his Ring that permitted him to stay undead for so long. With the ring destroyed, the cause that altered the natural course of events would be gone, so everything will return to normal and the WK will become 4500 year old man -so he would be dead. I really can't see how possession of the One could alter this .
B) How can I argue against that? - no way- it is canon!
All the rest is very true if the Witch-King got the One while he still had his own ring. Then the Witch King had good chances to overcome Sauron. It is certainly true in the case if any other than a nazgul mastered the One. But, I think, that Sauron's possession of the 9 was crippling for the nazgul, I believe Sauron literally held part of their souls and their very lives in his hands.

Originally Posted by Olmer

The Nine were made in different place and under different circumstances.They were "corrupted" by Saruman by connecting them to the controlling ring, but it' s it. …I think even with destruction of the One Nazgul, free of any control , will continue to exist in kind of bodiless form, but nevertheless present, untill the secret of destruction of the Nine Rings, which (alas!!) Celebrimbor took to the grave, could be somehow found.

I have to disagree, Olmer. The Three lost their power with the destruction of the One, even though they were not corrupted and, as well as the Nine, made by Celebrimbor, not Sauron. Result: Lorien had faded, Elves went West. It is strange to think that the Nine would remain powerful after the destruction of the One, while the Three lost their power. And when the Nine loose all their magic, they become just trinkets, and all they have wrought is destroyed. They have wrought immortal men - the men die as is natural for their kind.
As for Sauron being unable to destroy the rings… Are you joking? Destroying a thing is in general much easier than making it . I can destroy a most sophisticated computer in the world but I can't make even a simple calculator. Frodo has needed no instruction on Ring-making when he was sent to destroy the Ring. We know that some of the seven were destroyed by dragon fire. So I believe Orodruin's flame will be enough for the Nine. And Celebrimbor took to the grave the secret of the rings making, not their destruction.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i think the dead of Dunharrow found peace: they broke a specific tryst with Elendil (or Isildur anyway one of the two) and were cursed: they were then held to have fulfilled they're oath by the heir of Isildur by fighting in the War of the ring: and thus were granted peace: its a bit hard on the whole people though to be held accountable to the singular decision of the King: not a great vote in favour of the Monarchy this one if you were one of the innocent un-dead etc!

Yes, I totally agree. Cursing the whole people was wicked, and Isildur was not sufficiently punished for it, IMHO.
I believe that everyone has gone beyond and found peace. Yes, surely the Dead of Dunharrow, but also the ringwraiths, and the Barrow-wights and the wraiths taken by a Morgul-knife and the spirits of the Dead Marches. All of them had their hell in ME, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

BTW: Gordis & Olmer: ok on the WK, i can see why he didn't: my question was hypothetically put: it was if he did, what do you reckon his chance would have been? : if in North when acquired it and could master it reasonably quickly?

My take on it, no chances at all. Much would I liked it to be otherwise and my Lord to win , but no. Not while Sau held the WK's Ring.

[Butterbeer]

Well good points in general but i still fail to see how the lesser power of the ninth ring (as it were) that keeps the wraith as undead still, would be material in any way IF The Witch KING WAS WEARING THE ONE: the wearer of this ring as you point out in lesser beings such as Bilbo and Gollum was kept alive beyond normality: this was one major power of all the great rings of power: in the case of the Witch king he would have the greater part of Sauron's spirit on his finger! a powersource and spirit so sustainable Sauron was eclipsed for many many years untold when it was cut off from his finger!

IF (and sorry to labour this but IF he HAD mastered the ring i do not think Sauron would or could have been allowed to destroy his (wk's)original ring: but even if he did: he (WK) was wearing the One and would still exist IMHO while he still wore it through the power of the ONE!

its an interesting point to view whether he would be the same entity or just how he would exist: but to me there can be no doubt that the power of the one on his finger makes him impervious to any destruction of the lesser ring he was originally enslaved to: i believe Olmer made this point quite well with his Hacker analogy.

For sure without the ONE ring on his finger, the destruction in Orodrin (if possible: my feeling is it would be if Sauron could get it there (past the new Ring lord's forces) of his original ring would be the end for him.


Either way it would be a risky strategy though: WK in North near to Saruman, Elrond, Gandalf, Galdariel et al: destroy the WK by ring in fire WHILE he wears the one ring!
1) Hope this doesn't in turn destroy the One.
2) If not it falls where it is from his non-existent finger somewhere in the North with all and sundry urgently looking for it


Best
BB

[Gordis]

Well, Butterbeer, You certainly have a valid POV here! I still do think differently (oh nazgul stubbornness , but I have no new arguments.

Let us ask others: Dear Mooters what do you think of Butterbeer's IF question :
IF the Witch King obtained and could master the One, hypothetically could he overcome Sauron (while Sauron had the WK's own ring in his possession)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think BB has a good point. If the Ring gave Gollum unnatural long life, why can't it to the same for the WK? Think of it like a life support machine in a hospital. A man is lying in a coma(sp) with a life support machine. He is given a stronger one and his old one is destroyed. Would he die? No, he now has a new, stronger 'supply' of life.

[Gordis]

Well it seems nobody else but we four (Butterbeer, Olmer, TD and me) are interested in the subject. Sad, as I am VERY interested in it.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think BB has a good point. If the Ring gave Gollum unnatural long life, why can't it do the same for the WK? Think of it like a life support machine in a hospital. A man is lying in a coma(sp) with a life support machine. He is given a stronger one and his old one is destroyed. Would he die? No, he now has a new, stronger 'supply' of life.

I am sure your analogy is valid while the person in question is yet alive. For instance Bilbo could theoretically be given another Ring (elven, nazgul whatever) and continue to live without ageing.
But IMHO the nazgul are not really living anymore, but wraiths. Some magical change has occured due to the Ring's influence (wraithification). So it is not a physical world question anymore, but a magical question. And none of us, sadly, is too good in magic
However, I shall try (very lamely of course) explain my take on the matter. And I can't be sure I am right.
The rings had individuality. They had different names and different stones. Each ring performed a magic wraitification of a particular man. He became a wraith bound to a particular ring. That bond continued to exist even when a nazgul was devoid of his Ring. So possession of the Ring was not necessary anymore to the wraith's existence. That is already a difference from ring's action on a living man, before wraithification has occurred. The nature of the bond between a ringwraith and his ring is totally unknown, but I believe some part of the nazgul's fea passed into the Ring, in the same way as the One contained part of Sauron's fea ( part of his will and his power). IMHO that's why Sauron "died" when the One was destroyed, though he had 9 rings and 3 dwarven to act as a life support machine. So destruction of each nazgul ring brings the destruction of the nazgul, part of who's fea was contained within. And no other ring he might possess instead could change that, IMHO.

The same I believe is true of Elven Rings. For instance: Suppose Galadriel's Ring -Nenya- is destroyed, but Gandalf gives her his Narya instead. Will Lorien fade? I believe yes, as it was a magic work of Nenya, not Narya. She could build a new timeless kingdom with Narya instead, but it will be a new one and different.
Sorry if it is a bit vague...

[Butterbeer]

Thanks TD

and Gordis (ref: stubborness)
well i don't want to say anything unnatural or anything against my Ancestors but you do suspect that somewhere along the line there was a bit of MULE in the old genes myself


EDIT: time-lapse: just seen above post:

well yeah very interested myself but its far too complicated for my current mood at the mo' so i'll come back to it another time ( vaguely though on what you say above: doesn't this agree with both TD and myself: at least in the fact that the sauron with all those other rings left on his hand was wiped out: but that was because of suddenly missing the ONE! (the more powerful life support machine to continue the analogy) therefore IF[SIZE=7] WK had the One does this by your own argument not entirely prove the Point? as you inadvertandlty state the One is worth more to sauron historically (as proven) than all the other rings combined he had on his finger at the time???


best BB

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by gordis

Well it seems nobody else but we four (Butterbeer, Olmer, TD and me) are interested in the subject. Sad, as I am VERY interested in it.

i am excepting that i can not be on the old moot as often as is my wont.

[Butterbeer]

what's your view LCOU?

C'mon don't let the fascists (or whoever) keep you off the great and glorious Moo, man!

(mind you i have a lot to do myself: technically most of the time i am on the moot i am at work so it works quite well generally)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i don't think if the witch-king had gained the one ring that he would have used it against sauron, for, IIRC, his will was totally bent to sauron whilst the latter held the former's ring however i feel that if his will was not bent thusly, the witch-king may have been able to summon the power necessary, and if he had the ring, the others (of the nine) would have displayed deference to him, rather than to sauron

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i don't think if the witch-king had gained the one ring that he would have used it against sauron, for, IIRC, his will was totally bent to sauron whilst the latter held the former's ring however i feel that if his will was not bent thusly, the witch-king may have been able to summon the power necessary, and if he had the ring, the others (of the nine) would have displayed deference to him, rather than to sauron

well quite!
and IMHO why was the WK's "will bent totally toward Sauron?"

(FORGETING FOR A MOMMENT THE VERY PERSUAIVE ARGUMENTS THAT THE WK in particular was actually NOT that realiably behind Sauron but actually quite, as far as possible and in his own well judged interests, self serving)

because of his (sauron's) inherrent ruling power (a portion of the Power the ring contained: CANON) and power over the rings he had on his hand at this time)

Point is: IF the Witch KING not only had BUT MASTERED the ONE ring, the ring to rule them all ( the greater part of Sauron's spirit) the very DOOM of Middle-Earth,

whose will would be bent to who?
Who with their petty rings would be on bended Knee? Whose will bent to whom?

What say you?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i should really be doing my archaeology assignment!
i think that if the WK had been able to master the one ring, then whosoever held any lesser ring would fall prey to him, however, I do not believe he would be able to master it, despite his sorcerous abilities, he was only but a man, the worst one to attempt to master the ring would be gandalf, if he had taken it for his own in the hallway of bag end, then all middle earth would have fallen to him, the nine would have obeyed his will, as would sauron, and if elrond and galadriel continued to hold their rings, they would have obeyed also, and through sauron, gandalf could manipulate and hold denethor and saruman, through the palantiri

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i should really be doing my archaeology assignment!
i think that if the WK had been able to master the one ring, then whosoever held any lesser ring would fall prey to him, however, I do not believe he would be able to master it, despite his sorcerous abilities, he was only but a man …

Thank you for joining the discussion, LCOU! But isn't magic more enticing than archaeology?
Actually I believe that the Witch-King wouldn't have any problem with mastering the Ring. He was no mortal anymore and a very powerful sorcerer, and quite familiar with rings. (The One hardly differs from one of the Nine more than a Mac from a PC ). His will was honed to the domination og others. (cf Galadriel to Frodo: "Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others"). So the WK's problem was elsewhere, I believe.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gordis, Sauron put part of himself into the One during its making, this is not so with the Nazgûl. As I said earlier, if one Life Spport Machine was recieved the other was needless. The WK would have a stronger supply of life, the weaker supply wouldn't be needed.