11-21-2003, 07:48 AM | #61 | |
Elf Lord
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Using BB's quote above, he's destroyed his own defence / attack - n1. The good thing about this place is the trolls are sub-standard compared to the rest of the internet. 1) Leaving a MAJOR (biggest to date) plot-line unresolved. Also making no reference to the culmination to the biggest event (to date) seems like a great way to tie the films together right? 2) If it wasn't so early in the morning that me laughing wouldn't wake my girlfriend, I'd be doing it out loud. Again, removing a key scene obviously keeps it faithful to the book. Jackson has done enough hacks though that this won't bother him, even though it's pissed off one of the best actors in the film. Having said that, does anyone remember when FotR came out and the casting notes were made public, that Saruman was pencilled in only for the first two films? Obviously at that time PJ thought he'd wrap up TTT properly. Which he didn't. 3) This is for the film studio to decide, not Jackson. It's perfectly conceivable (although highly unlikely in this case) that New Line pushes some other film of theirs for BP and hushes up RotK. Jackson won't have to worry - RotK will win, and if not, his next pic will. The Academy has a long tradition of not awarded BP to the most deserving film, but to whoever 'feels' right to win. 4) Again this is something for NewLine to worry about (it's their marketing / funding behind it). If it doesn't break a billion, I somehow doubt NL and PJ will be crying all the way to the bank... Anyway, the best way to make a lot of money is to make the best movie you can. Cutting scenes like this (undoubtedly because of PJ's own created sideline 'plots') will NOT help matters. Personally I think the screenplay writers / adapters have been on one long power trip. They take arguably one of the best and most influential books of all time, and their egos tell them they can improve upon it. Sadly, in this case, their egos massively overreached their abilities. |
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11-21-2003, 11:32 AM | #62 | |
Elf Lord
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I find it interesting how often I'm criticized for my "you purists" talk when outright attacks like Gerbil's above are okay here. I guess its okay to be hateful and negative as long as you do it in the name of Tolkien.
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The Return of the King is a Sauron film, not a Saruman one. |
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11-21-2003, 11:57 AM | #63 | ||
Cyber Elf Lord
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As the quote from Forrest goes: St*p*d is as St*p*d does. From now on all will refrain from the use of the word St*p*d*ty. (Anyone care to buy a vowel. ) If you wish the movies to be judged soley as movies alone, then I think Gerbil's comment has merit Quote:
If you wish the movies to be judged as part of the JRRT LOTR mosaic, the movies must take some hits for how the film adapts JRRT LOTR novel to screen. (any additions and/or omissions of the stories will and can be critique by others for how well they stay true to the spirit of JRRT's novel.) I do not think that you can have it both ways. I, on the whole, enjoyed (so far) PJ&co LOTR, even with the many problems (primarily due to how the film adapted LOTR) I have with the films. I still think it could have been much better. Even if the films are critiqued as stand alone movies, I have some problems with them. (the hastiness of the ents to name one area)
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) Last edited by mithrand1r : 11-21-2003 at 12:00 PM. |
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11-21-2003, 12:07 PM | #64 | ||
Elven Warrior
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11-21-2003, 01:08 PM | #65 | |||||
Elf Lord
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I'd say simply that for a filmic person, if anything, he won't really care because Saruman was simply a speed-bump in the road to the final film and big climactic ending. Us book-lovers know otherwise of course, but PJ has done a remarkable job of downplaying the role, only to be thwarted by Lee's commendable acting. Quote:
The thing is, the third film opens with Pippin in Orthanc with the Palantir. Now, film viewers being idiots or not, they are going to ask where the wizard who used to be in charge of it is. This, of course, assumes we take CL on a literal wording of his issues - that he is not in ANY scenes (or by implication has no voice overs). To be honest I can't see how that's possible, but I'm sure PJ will hack it. My main sadness is it would have made a great start to RotK - remember how TTT started with Gandalf's fight with the Balrog? An epic confrontation that I still rate as probably the best bit from the films so far. We could have had another 'big' start to a LotR film with Saruman's death. That there's no battle to go with it for a truly epic start is simply down to what appears to be PJ's crap uncertainty of how RotK would start when TTT was finally edited. Saruman's end could fittingly go either at the start of RotK or at the end of TTT. It's at neither, and that IS annoying. Damn board forgetting my login, BB wasn't blocked. Still, got another chance to have a bash, so it can't be all bad. Could be worse, you could all be here where I'll have to wait until December the 25th for RotK to be released. Lucky they celebrate Xmas on the 24th - I'll be spending the 25th 'giving myself a couple of Christmas presents' (I intend to see it twice in a row like wot I did with FotR and TTT ) |
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11-21-2003, 03:59 PM | #66 |
Long lost mooter
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I think we'll get something along these lines:
Gandalf and Co. arrive in Isengard and find M & P. The palantir floats by(? this is probably wrong, because obviously it's too heavy, but I don't think it'll be in the storeroom. So maybe it'll be ON something that's floating OR they'll actually go in and it'll be somewhere in there) with a lot of other stuff from the first few floors of Orthanc. Pippin grabs it and looks into it, then Gandalf grabs it, yada yada yada. OR maybe Gandalf will get it first, and they'll have it at their encampment (with Aragron either looking into it before or after Pippin), and the action proceeds from there. [I deleted the flame above, BB. Please understand that I can't be on all the time, so it may be a while before I find posts that need editing. As mithrandir said, we all need to stop calling people stupid. That is a flame. Furthermore, if anyone sees a flame directed against themselves or anyone else, they can use the button that says "report this post to a moderator," and that will alert us of the problem post more quickly. Arguing about it with the poster will only lead to off topic bickering that might then escalate. Better to say nothing, and either ignore it or report the post, or even PM the person about it directly first if they have their PM turned on and ask them to remove it because it is offensive to you.] |
11-21-2003, 05:58 PM | #67 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I doubt it will be anything that complex. Remember, they don't cut out anything from the theatrical version . I think it will be something like,"Hey, I can't believe Saruman threw the palantir." in some later scene. This would allow the deleted scene to be spliced in later for the EE.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-21-2003, 06:18 PM | #68 | |
Elven Warrior
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11-21-2003, 06:39 PM | #69 | |
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-21-2003, 11:24 PM | #70 | ||
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Jumping into the thread... whee!
I don't get it. If (and we can't be sure until we've actually seen the movie) Saruman has been cut, how will Pippin get the Palantir? I guess it could be cut too, but it was such a useful plot device. That's why Merry and Pippin were split up. Without the Palantir, there would be no reason to. Wrapping up unresolved plot lines isn't necessarily spoon feeding the audience.
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11-21-2003, 11:45 PM | #71 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-22-2003, 01:29 AM | #72 | ||
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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11-22-2003, 03:16 AM | #73 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I see. I think I was unclear in my post. I meant the extended edition version on DVD will have all the scenes from the theatrical release plus the ones deleted and new" ones. I don't think they will do alternate scenes in the EE.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-22-2003, 10:17 AM | #74 |
Elf Lord
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What is becoming increasingly clear is that the EE versions are for true Tolkien fans. So Peter Jackson DOES feel he can have it both ways: He can craft a theatrical version that he feels is the best while knowing that he can add the any deleted scenes back into the EE editions.
The reality is that after all three DVDs come out, the three films will always be marketed together as the books have been over the years. Arguments about deleted scenes like the gift-giving scene and Saurman's end will be mute because they will be a part of the full Lord of the Rings story that will be in fans' movie libraries. |
11-22-2003, 11:11 AM | #75 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Arguments about deleted scenes like the gift-giving scene and Saurman's end will be mute because they will be a part of the full Lord of the Rings story that will be in fans' movie libraries. _________________________________________ Your suggestion is arguably a valid one for some, but... only if they fork out hundreds of dollars for complete sets of the three movies theatrical version and the three movies extended dvd version. And, for many people, purchasing a dvd converter or new television is big $$$$$$$$$$$$. There are people who either don't want, don't understand, can't afford, etc. dvd hardware and software just to see a different interpretive LOTR version then the theatrical one. And the thatrical viewing "experience" would still be lost.
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11-29-2003, 03:27 PM | #76 | |||
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In addition, Jackson didn’t even film the Scouring of the Shire. Apparently, he didn’t like that part of the book – it happens to be my favourite part!
I would certainly appreciate that gift giving scene though. Maybe he cares about us Tolkienites a little bit. Dunedan:
If that's true I'm going to be choked. If Saruman really is cut, I suppose this is as good as they could get that.
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11-30-2003, 12:57 AM | #77 | |
Viggoholic
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I have heard at least one review of the ROTK say that it felt like the Saruman angle wasn't tied up properly. Won't ordinary viewers, who would not buy the ROTK EE, wonder what happened to him? He is a powerful wizard -- it's too much to assume he wouldn't make trouble after Isengard is flooded. I would prefer that he landed on the big, spiky wheel than nothing at all! And what about Grima?
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11-30-2003, 01:28 AM | #78 | ||||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-30-2003, 02:15 AM | #79 | |
Hobbit
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It seems ages since being shocked by the Saruman cut . . here are some more:
I understand that most of these scenes were filmed and will be in the Special Edition . . but, still . . . Last edited by kennebecc : 11-30-2003 at 02:16 AM. |
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11-30-2003, 02:22 AM | #80 | ||
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Well what the heck! At least Frodo will destroy the Ring... right? There was a lot of important stuff in those scenes though, no wonder Christopher Lee's mad. Can I infer from all these cuts that the Battle of Pelennor Fields will take up half the movie? The other half will grudgingly be devoted to Frodo's quest.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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