Aragorn and Arwen, incest? - Page 4

Wayfarer · 02-11-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Someone said the elves hadn't had a king since Gil-galad at the end of the Second Age. Wrong.

Already been there. Gil-Galad was only the last High King of the elves in middle earth.

Elmo? Boy, am I glad I'm too cynical for tickle-me jokes.

Elvellyn · 02-11-2003, 11:01 PM

SO what would you call that?
1st cousins 60 times removed or just very distantly related people.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-12-2003, 04:30 AM

What I'd call it is irrelevant.

ranger · 05-23-2004, 12:04 AM

i dont think they would have birth defects..... but no offence to elves i hate arwen.... she was only supposed to be in one ( or better 0) scenes in the movie.. but nnnoooooooo!!!!! they had to make her so important she replaced glorfindel (sp?) plus she got married to aragorn.... that right there is a felony( srry i like him)

Quote:

i am a ranger.... i will fight for right and what i believe( you dis my family, friends hobbies.......i will fight even if i will not survive) aragorn (viggo) rocks!!!!![/

**Nurvingiel** · 05-23-2004, 05:23 PM

*cough* book forum *cough* That is to say, what Arwen was like in the movie is irrelevant here. I liked Arwen's small but important role in the book. She provided Aragorn with hope and inspiration, and his love for her made him seem more human somehow.

Anyway, someone may have said this before, but they are so distantly related that it would not be considered incest. Incest is also defined by society. (Many societies placed a taboo on brothers and sisters marrying due to observed birth defects.) In some societies, it's okay for cousins to marry. In "western" society, 2nd cousins can marry, for example. (Second cousins are people whose grandparents were siblings.)

Aragorn and Arwen's children (Eldarion and three unnamed daughters

) would not be adversely affected.

Earlier in this topic, I think someone figured out exactly how Arwen and Aragorn are related. I think you'll see it's a non-incestuous connection.

Cheerio! Nurv

ranger · 05-23-2004, 05:52 PM

i knew that...

Quote:

i am a ranger.... i will fight for right and what i believe( you insult my family, friends hobbies.......i will fight even if i will not survive) aragorn (viggo) rocks!

***Valandil*** · 05-23-2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
*cough* book forum *cough* That is to say, what Arwen was like in the movie is irrelevant here. I liked Arwen's small but important role in the book. She provided Aragorn with hope and inspiration, and his love for her made him seem more human somehow.

Anyway, someone may have said this before, but they are so distantly related that it would not be considered incest. Incest is also defined by society. (Many societies placed a taboo on brothers and sisters marrying due to observed birth defects.) In some societies, it's okay for cousins to marry. In "western" society, 2nd cousins can marry, for example. (Second cousins are people whose grandparents were siblings.)

Aragorn and Arwen's children (Eldarion and three unnamed daughters ) would not be adversely affected.

Earlier in this topic, I think someone figured out exactly how Arwen and Aragorn are related. I think you'll see it's a non-incestuous connection.

Cheerio! Nurv

Who are YOU anyway???

ItalianLegolas · 12-06-2004, 08:32 PM

well they are really like long seperated cousins...

Snowdog · 12-07-2004, 03:04 PM

They were just keeping their bloodlines 'pure'.

Manveru · 12-07-2004, 04:48 PM

Funnily enough i was thinking about this a few days ago, but there is a HUGE generation gap between elros and aragorn:

Kings of Numenor
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Vardamir
Tar-Amandil
Tar-Elendil
Tar-Meneldur
Tar-Aldarion
Tar-Ancalime
Tar-Anarion
Tar-Surion
Tar-Telperien
Tar-Minastir
Tar-Ciryatan
Tar-Atanamir the Great
Tar-Ancalimon
Tar-Telemmaite
Tar-Vanimelde
Tar-Alcarin
Tar-Calmacil
Ar-Adunakhor
Ar-Zimrathon
Ar-Sakalthor
Ar-Gimilzor
Ar-Inziladun/Tar-Palantir
Ar-Pharazon the Golden

Kings of Arnor
Elendil
Isildur
Valandil
Eldacar
Arantur
Tarcil
Tarondor
Valandur
Elendur
Earendur

Kings of Arthedain
Amlaith
Beleg
Mallor
Celepharn
Celebrindor
Malvegil
Argeleb
Arveleg
Araphor
Argeleb II
Arvegil
Araval
Araphant
Arvedui

Chieftains
Aranarth
Arahael
Aranuir
Aravir
Aragorn
Araglas
Arahad
Aragost
Aravorn
Arahad II
Arassuil
Arathorn
Argonui
Arador
Arathorn II
Aragorn II

so there is something like 64 generations or so between the two, i think thats enough to ensure that there won't be any birth defects

Aragorn was born in 2931 TA
Arwen was born in 241 TA
that makes her 2690 years older than him

CRAZY!!!!!!

Telcontar_Dunedain · 12-07-2004, 04:50 PM

Must resis mentioning the Sil. Must resist mentioning Meaglin's lust for Idril!

Noooo. I failed!

Bombadillo · 12-08-2004, 12:06 AM

Most people can't even trace their lineage so extensively, and if we all did we'd probably find a surprising lot of "relatives" married to each other, and it wouldn't be such a big issue. Among immortals, this has got to be even less significant because it could happen that much more often.

Either way, the amount of good they brought about would surely cancel out any icky thoughts.

Wasn't Aragorn adopted by Elrond though? How did Tolkien describe that relationship? (He might have been just "taken in." But if Tolkien uses the word "adopted" then Arwen would have been introduced to Aragorn as "yeah, here's your sister.")

Elemmírë · 12-08-2004, 01:34 AM

Icky thoughts! Icky thoughts!

Anyway, I don't know why some people make a big deal about their dilute kinship...

You could say far more about Galadriel and Celeborn...

inked · 12-08-2004, 11:20 AM

The answer to the header is NO. Just another sensational headline to get people to the thread!

But if you go back to the limited number of available elves/men/dwarves, the possibility, nay probability, of kinship classifications currently proscribed rises.
Assuming genetics in ME works the same as the primary world, in the primordial setting the number of potential genetic defects would be smaller per individual with a lower incidence of abnormalities being engendered. The reality would be too that incompatability with life syndromes that emerged would have resulted in stillborn or soon-dead offspring. As complete as JRRT was in his world-making, I don't think he tought along these lines at all!

Manveru · 12-08-2004, 04:57 PM

well as far as we know Eldarion and his sisters were all free of birth defects

Radagast The Brown · 12-08-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Wasn't Aragorn adopted by Elrond though? How did Tolkien describe that relationship? (He might have been just "taken in." But if Tolkien uses the word "adopted" then Arwen would have been introduced to Aragorn as "yeah, here's your sister.")

Aragorn didn't even know Arwen existed till he was 24 (IIRC) and knew he wasn't really Elrond's son. (and therefore knew she's not really his sister, and probably never felt that she's his sister. Theye didn't grow up together or anything)

02-11-2003, 11:01 PM	#62
Elvellyn The Redneck Elf Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 539	SO what would you call that? 1st cousins 60 times removed or just very distantly related people. __________________ Oliphants make great pets.

02-12-2003, 04:30 AM	#63
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	What I'd call it is irrelevant. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

12-06-2004, 08:32 PM	#68
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	well they are really like long seperated cousins... __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-07-2004, 03:04 PM	#69
Snowdog Dúnedain Ranger of the North Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Ruins of Arnor Posts: 892	They were just keeping their bloodlines 'pure'. __________________ "I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run."

12-07-2004, 04:48 PM	#70
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	Funnily enough i was thinking about this a few days ago, but there is a HUGE generation gap between elros and aragorn: Kings of Numenor Elros Tar-Minyatur Vardamir Tar-Amandil Tar-Elendil Tar-Meneldur Tar-Aldarion Tar-Ancalime Tar-Anarion Tar-Surion Tar-Telperien Tar-Minastir Tar-Ciryatan Tar-Atanamir the Great Tar-Ancalimon Tar-Telemmaite Tar-Vanimelde Tar-Alcarin Tar-Calmacil Ar-Adunakhor Ar-Zimrathon Ar-Sakalthor Ar-Gimilzor Ar-Inziladun/Tar-Palantir Ar-Pharazon the Golden Kings of Arnor Elendil Isildur Valandil Eldacar Arantur Tarcil Tarondor Valandur Elendur Earendur Kings of Arthedain Amlaith Beleg Mallor Celepharn Celebrindor Malvegil Argeleb Arveleg Araphor Argeleb II Arvegil Araval Araphant Arvedui Chieftains Aranarth Arahael Aranuir Aravir Aragorn Araglas Arahad Aragost Aravorn Arahad II Arassuil Arathorn Argonui Arador Arathorn II Aragorn II so there is something like 64 generations or so between the two, i think thats enough to ensure that there won't be any birth defects Aragorn was born in 2931 TA Arwen was born in 241 TA that makes her 2690 years older than him CRAZY!!!!!! __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

12-07-2004, 04:50 PM	#71
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Must resis mentioning the Sil. Must resist mentioning Meaglin's lust for Idril! Noooo. I failed! __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

12-08-2004, 12:06 AM	#72
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Most people can't even trace their lineage so extensively, and if we all did we'd probably find a surprising lot of "relatives" married to each other, and it wouldn't be such a big issue. Among immortals, this has got to be even less significant because it could happen that much more often. Either way, the amount of good they brought about would surely cancel out any icky thoughts. Wasn't Aragorn adopted by Elrond though? How did Tolkien describe that relationship? (He might have been just "taken in." But if Tolkien uses the word "adopted" then Arwen would have been introduced to Aragorn as "yeah, here's your sister.") __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 12-08-2004 at 12:09 AM.

12-08-2004, 01:34 AM	#73
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Icky thoughts! Icky thoughts! Anyway, I don't know why some people make a big deal about their dilute kinship... You could say far more about Galadriel and Celeborn... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

12-08-2004, 11:20 AM	#74
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	The answer to the header is NO. Just another sensational headline to get people to the thread! But if you go back to the limited number of available elves/men/dwarves, the possibility, nay probability, of kinship classifications currently proscribed rises. Assuming genetics in ME works the same as the primary world, in the primordial setting the number of potential genetic defects would be smaller per individual with a lower incidence of abnormalities being engendered. The reality would be too that incompatability with life syndromes that emerged would have resulted in stillborn or soon-dead offspring. As complete as JRRT was in his world-making, I don't think he tought along these lines at all! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

12-08-2004, 04:57 PM	#75
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	well as far as we know Eldarion and his sisters were all free of birth defects __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

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