REAL debate thread for RELIGION - Page 39

Insidious Rex · 03-08-2004, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
EDIT: just thought of some more,
it is actually the second oldest 'religion' in the world, after judaism
then shinto, taoism,hinduism, chridtianity, islam, sikhism

what about Zoroastrianism? That dates back to 7000 years before christ.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-08-2004, 11:43 PM

thank you for correcting me, I Rex

that would place buddhism as 3rd religion

Insidious Rex · 03-09-2004, 12:50 AM

although to be fair i guess you dont see a whole lot of Zoroastrian temples around anymore. im sure theres some but perhaps your list reflects truly living religions.

GrayMouser · 03-09-2004, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
if anyone wants to know about buddhism, i have posted a little bit further up ^

EDIT: just thought of some more,
it is actually the second oldest 'religion' in the world, after judaism
then shinto, taoism,hinduism, chridtianity, islam, sikhism
(if i'm wrong, i don't mean to offend, just point it out to me!)

it would seem that indian/oriental religions developed first?
with the three main 'western' religions coming later on
am i right in assuming that jews, christians and muslims worship the same god, only in different ways?

But didn't Buddhism (like its contemporary Jainism) develop as a reaction against Hinduism? though of course Hinduism has changed a lot since the Classical period, with the rise of Shivaism and Ramaism.

***RÃan*** · 03-09-2004, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
buddhism:
where do i start??

not really a religion, as such more a collection of beliefs and a way of life
basically, the buddha (Siddatha Goutama [spelt differently in all countries]) teaches that you should live your life true to yourself, and always be good to other people as well as yourself.
We follow the 8 spoked wheel, to find Nirvana, which is spiritual enlightenment

hope that helps a bit

I'm familiar with those things already

but why do you, personally, think Buddhism is the right worldview for you?

Drgnslyer · 03-09-2004, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I'm familiar with those things already but why do you, personally, think Buddhism is the right worldview for you?

Everyone should be asking this question of themselves...

not only why, but recognize that the particular faith *there's that word again* is the right worldview for you.

I keep thinking back to the fact that each and every religion has striking paralells to any other religion...which interrpretation works best for you?

**Nurvingiel** · 03-09-2004, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
Everyone should be asking this question of themselves...

I'm asking myself this right now. (I haven't found an answer yet.

)

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-09-2004, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
But didn't Buddhism (like its contemporary Jainism) develop as a reaction against Hinduism? though of course Hinduism has changed a lot since the Classical period, with the rise of Shivaism and Ramaism.

Sorry, let me clarify, i tried to put them in an order with a reference to how the religions are now, not their base religions, because then i would have to list all the 'ancient' religions
eg babylonian, olmec, mesopatamian, mycaenian etcetera

now, to answer rian:
my family have been atheists for a very long time, which is unusual in itself, and (after a trip to tibet) i began looking into myself, as it were, and i felt i neede some spirituality without this tendency to any gods, buddhism just seemed to be perfect to me

no offence to anyone who is in a religion with a god, like i said before, all people have a right to their freedom to choose whatever religion that they want

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-09-2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I'm asking myself this right now. (I haven't found an answer yet. )

to be honest, anyone that finds a complete and utter answer to that ultimate question, must be an astounding human being, in order to unravel the mystery of life, the universe and everything
(42, by the way)

i think people should just sit and think, the world moves too fast as it is - once you have looked into yourself, then you truly are a person

is that a bit deep for me?

**Nurvingiel** · 03-09-2004, 01:40 PM

That's not too deep - clearly you're an intelligent person. Tell us more about what Buddhism means to you, this is very interesting.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-09-2004, 01:45 PM

ta, nurv, i do try to be intelligent

you also seem very intelligent

basically, for me, buddhism is a way of life,
for me, doing good by myself and others is more important than worshipping to any one god,
as the dalai lama once said "It is not enough to merely call oneself a buddhist"

hope that helps
chrys

ps. love the avvie you made for me, nurv

Drgnslyer · 03-09-2004, 04:34 PM

Anyone able to put in a relevant post more than 5 sentances *checks his posts to make sure he isn't calling himself dumb* in this thread has to have some sort of intelligence :P

Personally I think Buddhism is a phenominal religion, finding ways to make yourself a better person than you were before is always a good way to go

Katie of the Golden Wood · 03-09-2004, 05:27 PM

Personally, I've never found a single religion that completely suited me. Basically, I'm Catholic, but though I don't disagree with the doctrine I disagree with some of the practices of the hierarchy. I've sort of built my own type of religion where I combined different aspects of other religions to Catholicism. I still go to Church and believe in the ideas of the Church, but I add other things to. For example, I follow Shintoism in that I always am looking at nature and I am believe in Islam because I believe that you can see miracles everywhere, even in little things like rain. The book Life of Pi really influenced me. It's about a boy who practices Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all at once, and its an amazing story.

Katie
PS: Its by Yann Martel if anyone wants to read it.

Insidious Rex · 03-09-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Personally, I've never found a single religion that completely suited me. Basically, I'm Catholic, but though I don't disagree with the doctrine I disagree with some of the practices of the hierarchy. I've sort of built my own type of religion where I combined different aspects of other religions to Catholicism. I still go to Church and believe in the ideas of the Church, but I add other things to. For example, I follow Shintoism in that I always am looking at nature and I am believe in Islam because I believe that you can see miracles everywhere, even in little things like rain. The book Life of Pi really influenced me. It's about a boy who practices Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all at once, and its an amazing story.

Katie
PS: Its by Yann Martel if anyone wants to read it.

sounds extremely open minded and extremely personal to me. Keep up the good work.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 03-09-2004, 05:59 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
thanks for that, rian,

for me, i hope to reach nirvana within eight life cycles, and then be free to choose whether to return to the world, or stay in nirvana, this is the ultimate goal for buddhists, to leave the reincarnation cycle, and reach enlightenment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote: originally posted by Rian
I have a huge problem with Buddhism - namely, #3 and #4 of the Fourfold truths ... to me, they deny both logic and heart ... and Christianity has such strong, real joys that Buddhism just doesn't, and to me this is one strong indicator that Buddhism is wrong ... but that should be over in the religion thread ... maybe we can discuss it there when I get back
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are everyone elses opinions on buddhism, or any other faith, for that matter?

Arien the Maia · 03-09-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Personally, I've never found a single religion that completely suited me. Basically, I'm Catholic, but though I don't disagree with the doctrine I disagree with some of the practices of the hierarchy. I've sort of built my own type of religion where I combined different aspects of other religions to Catholicism. I still go to Church and believe in the ideas of the Church, but I add other things to. For example, I follow Shintoism in that I always am looking at nature and I am believe in Islam because I believe that you can see miracles everywhere, even in little things like rain. The book Life of Pi really influenced me. It's about a boy who practices Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all at once, and its an amazing story.

Katie
PS: Its by Yann Martel if anyone wants to read it.

I'm kinda like that too. (adding other things to the practices of Catholicism) I don't think that the Church is against it as long as you aren't practicing anything that the Church does preach against

I enjoy meditation and things like that. (kinda new age)

Drgnslyer · 03-09-2004, 09:25 PM

I've been always curious about how christian saints can preform miracles, yet whenever anyone else *ie: pagan religious people* perform anything resembling a miracle it's considered by the church sorcery and belittled.....has anyone else noticed this trend in history?

Katie of the Golden Wood · 03-10-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drgnslyer
I've been always curious about how christian saints can preform miracles, yet whenever anyone else *ie: pagan religious people* perform anything resembling a miracle it's considered by the church sorcery and belittled.....has anyone else noticed this trend in history?

The hierarchy of the Catholic Church has been a bit hypocritical throughout history. They denounced gambling (the story of Jesus throwing out the merchants in the temple) but they sold indulgences. Also, due to persecution they've also been prone to being defensive and could consider anyone who doesn't believe in God unable to perform/see miracles. Just an idea though, I'm not very informed on the subject.

Katie

Mercutio · 03-10-2004, 06:31 PM

Are we specifically talking about the Catholic Church right now?

The story of Jesus in the temple was not one to specifically denounce the moneychangers (who can, conviently, charge whatever interest they want), or selling animals. Rather, Jesus drove these people out of the Lord's temple because they were using it as a marketplace, something it certainly should not be. I'm not sure where people pick this up as denouncing gambling. Could you point it out for me?

Secondly, the church did sell indulgences during at least part of the 1500s. The reformation, begun by Martin Luther, was to try to not break away from but fix the problems in the Catholic Church. The pope refused to cooperate, continually excommunicating Luther. Eventually he and some other of the reformers, such as John Calvin, broke away from the church because they (the church) refused to change. One of the problems they had found with the Catholic church was the selling of indulgences (you would pay money for salvation/to get your relative out of purgery). HOWEVER-- The Catholic church did realize it was wrong on this point and stopped the practice. We are all human and no matter what our religion we can make mistakes and botch it up a little. The important thing is that they don't do it anymore.

Does anyone have any other examples of hypocrisy in the Catholic/Christian Church throughout history?

In the Life of Pi, how can someone practice Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity all at once? Or did they just incororate different aspects of each into their own personal religion?

When a Christian, now saint, performed a miracle, it had to have been through God's power. If someone who doesn't believe in that God performs a "miracle" or something similar, how could the Christians say it was through the power of the Christian God? It couldn't be. Non-Christians just don't perform Christian miracles. If they did perform a miracle, the only other option is throught he devil/satan. Christians believe that their religion is the right one. Wouldn't anybody? And if they are right, someone else would have to be wrong. Do you get my drift?

If you ask me questions, I will try to give you answers.

P.S. My dog is named Augustine (after St. Augustine) and we decided the next one would be Melankthon (for those of you who know who he is).

Oh--and I am Lutheran, a denomination of the Protestant (Christian) Church.

Agalayth · 03-10-2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Katie of the Golden Wood
Personally, I've never found a single religion that completely suited me. Basically, I'm Catholic, but though I don't disagree with the doctrine I disagree with some of the practices of the hierarchy. I've sort of built my own type of religion where I combined different aspects of other religions to Catholicism. I still go to Church and believe in the ideas of the Church, but I add other things to. For example, I follow Shintoism in that I always am looking at nature and I am believe in Islam because I believe that you can see miracles everywhere, even in little things like rain. The book Life of Pi really influenced me. It's about a boy who practices Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all at once, and its an amazing story.

Katie
PS: Its by Yann Martel if anyone wants to read it.

I LOVE that book. I just finished it a little while ago.

Anyway, I'm kind of like that too. I'm basically Jewish, but there are aspects of Buddhism and some of my own beliefs that I incorperate into my belief structure...

...hey, it's better than a couple weeks ago. I didn't know what the hell I believed then.

03-09-2004, 12:50 AM	#763
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	although to be fair i guess you dont see a whole lot of Zoroastrian temples around anymore. im sure theres some but perhaps your list reflects truly living religions. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

03-09-2004, 04:34 PM	#772
Drgnslyer Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Prince George BC Canada Posts: 139	Anyone able to put in a relevant post more than 5 sentances checks his posts to make sure he isn't calling himself dumb in this thread has to have some sort of intelligence :P Personally I think Buddhism is a phenominal religion, finding ways to make yourself a better person than you were before is always a good way to go __________________ If you must judge others.....do not judge others by the height they have climbed; rather, judge them by the depths they have risen from. Think before you act, but act before it's too late. He is a man of sense who does not grieve for what he has not, but rejoices in what he has. You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. The Utopian Oldschool Champ. http://games.swirve.com/utopia www.Orderofavalon.com

03-09-2004, 09:25 PM	#777
Drgnslyer Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Prince George BC Canada Posts: 139	I've been always curious about how christian saints can preform miracles, yet whenever anyone else ie: pagan religious people perform anything resembling a miracle it's considered by the church sorcery and belittled.....has anyone else noticed this trend in history? __________________ If you must judge others.....do not judge others by the height they have climbed; rather, judge them by the depths they have risen from. Think before you act, but act before it's too late. He is a man of sense who does not grieve for what he has not, but rejoices in what he has. You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. The Utopian Oldschool Champ. http://games.swirve.com/utopia www.Orderofavalon.com

03-10-2004, 06:31 PM	#779
Mercutio Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Narnia Posts: 1,656	Are we specifically talking about the Catholic Church right now? The story of Jesus in the temple was not one to specifically denounce the moneychangers (who can, conviently, charge whatever interest they want), or selling animals. Rather, Jesus drove these people out of the Lord's temple because they were using it as a marketplace, something it certainly should not be. I'm not sure where people pick this up as denouncing gambling. Could you point it out for me? Secondly, the church did sell indulgences during at least part of the 1500s. The reformation, begun by Martin Luther, was to try to not break away from but fix the problems in the Catholic Church. The pope refused to cooperate, continually excommunicating Luther. Eventually he and some other of the reformers, such as John Calvin, broke away from the church because they (the church) refused to change. One of the problems they had found with the Catholic church was the selling of indulgences (you would pay money for salvation/to get your relative out of purgery). HOWEVER-- The Catholic church did realize it was wrong on this point and stopped the practice. We are all human and no matter what our religion we can make mistakes and botch it up a little. The important thing is that they don't do it anymore. Does anyone have any other examples of hypocrisy in the Catholic/Christian Church throughout history? In the Life of Pi, how can someone practice Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity all at once? Or did they just incororate different aspects of each into their own personal religion? When a Christian, now saint, performed a miracle, it had to have been through God's power. If someone who doesn't believe in that God performs a "miracle" or something similar, how could the Christians say it was through the power of the Christian God? It couldn't be. Non-Christians just don't perform Christian miracles. If they did perform a miracle, the only other option is throught he devil/satan. Christians believe that their religion is the right one. Wouldn't anybody? And if they are right, someone else would have to be wrong. Do you get my drift? If you ask me questions, I will try to give you answers. P.S. My dog is named Augustine (after St. Augustine) and we decided the next one would be Melankthon (for those of you who know who he is). Oh--and I am Lutheran, a denomination of the Protestant (Christian) Church. __________________ Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries.

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03-08-2004, 11:43 PM	#762
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	thank you for correcting me, I Rex that would place buddhism as 3rd religion

03-09-2004, 01:45 PM	#771
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	ta, nurv, i do try to be intelligent you also seem very intelligent basically, for me, buddhism is a way of life, for me, doing good by myself and others is more important than worshipping to any one god, as the dalai lama once said "It is not enough to merely call oneself a buddhist" hope that helps chrys ps. love the avvie you made for me, nurv

03-09-2004, 05:27 PM	#773
Katie of the Golden Wood Enting Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: US of A Posts: 69	Personally, I've never found a single religion that completely suited me. Basically, I'm Catholic, but though I don't disagree with the doctrine I disagree with some of the practices of the hierarchy. I've sort of built my own type of religion where I combined different aspects of other religions to Catholicism. I still go to Church and believe in the ideas of the Church, but I add other things to. For example, I follow Shintoism in that I always am looking at nature and I am believe in Islam because I believe that you can see miracles everywhere, even in little things like rain. The book Life of Pi really influenced me. It's about a boy who practices Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity all at once, and its an amazing story. Katie PS: Its by Yann Martel if anyone wants to read it.

03-09-2004, 05:59 PM	#775
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant thanks for that, rian, for me, i hope to reach nirvana within eight life cycles, and then be free to choose whether to return to the world, or stay in nirvana, this is the ultimate goal for buddhists, to leave the reincarnation cycle, and reach enlightenment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: originally posted by Rian I have a huge problem with Buddhism - namely, #3 and #4 of the Fourfold truths ... to me, they deny both logic and heart ... and Christianity has such strong, real joys that Buddhism just doesn't, and to me this is one strong indicator that Buddhism is wrong ... but that should be over in the religion thread ... maybe we can discuss it there when I get back ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are everyone elses opinions on buddhism, or any other faith, for that matter?