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#761 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#762 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#763 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Now it's "Large groups, Major denominations which matter."
We've come pretty far from post 721, where you asked "isn't there something rather flawed in the logic that, "everyone thinks so, so it is so." And how does everyone thinking it is true (assuming for a moment that they do, though I disagree) make it objective?
So. Is our stand that what is, is, or is our standard that majority rules? If every person on the whole PLANET believed Mormons weren't Christian, that would have no impact on whether they were or not, if God is to be the judge. There doesn't seem to be much point in my dragging in example after example of doctrinal differences that mattered to Christians (like the Catholic Church's rejection, until the 1960's, of churches in the Orthodox tradition, or hundreds of years of war in Ireland) if you won't accept that they exist. I can post examples from 20 websites explaining that those churches don't think Roman Catholics are Christian, but you think they aren't 'major" enough. Well, the Protestant tradition is like that. It doesn't have the same central post office that the Catholic churches do. And if I bring in groups that do NOT have a dog in the fight, because they're secular, they're unimportant, too. Talk about proving a negative. I've given you several lists of Christians. You haven't given me one. Because you CANNOT list 30 churches that haven't had doctrinal disputes. Give me your list of "major denominations" that refuse to consider the Mormon Church Christian, or shut up. Quote:
http://www.intellectualconservative....ticle3282.html in 2004. Mormon representation in American politics has grown beyond demographic equilibrium. With over five million members living in the United States (11 million world wide), Mormons account for 1.6% of the U.S. population, but more than 5% of elected representatives in congress. Please don’t tell Jesse Jackson. Just a few examples: in the House of Representatives there is Jeff Flake (AZ), John Doolittle (CA), Wally Herger (CA), Howard McKeon (CA), Ernest Istook (OK), Mike Simpson (ID), Thomas Udall (NM), Rob Bishop (UT), and Chris Cannon (UT). All except Udall are Republican. (Udall notes his faith as unspecified, but he comes from a long historical line of Mormon politicians) There are 21 Mormon members in the House of Representatives all together. In the Senate there are 5 Mormons. Senators Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett, both from Utah, Senator Mike Crapo of Idaho and Gordon Smith from Oregon (the latter is considered a moderate Republican). The fifth member of the Senate is the ultimate exception to the rule: Senator Harry Reid, senior member of the Democrat leadership and, by all accounts, left-leaning. Outside Washington you have the successful gubernatorial candidacy of Olympic organizer Mitt Romney, Bay Buchanan, radio talk show host Glenn Beck, and most recently, former Utah Governor Mike Leavitt was confirmed as Secretary of the EPA. If Mormons WERE Christian they'd be the third largest batch in the country. Mitt Romney declared today. You have a vague sense that Pentacostals are heretics, and now you'll put that to a plebiscite, if you think that will win your point. The only place this behavior is described in the Bible is as 'Pharisee,' and that's the title they go by in Screwtape, too. Is that the title you're working for? |
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#764 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I think you're going a bit overboard with those last two sentences, Sis.
Here's my personal experience - I don't consider Mormons to be Christian, and neither do any of the non-Mormon Christians that I've talked to or read from. The main reason would be their concept of who/what Jesus and God are - that they were once people and just got better, basically, and that we, too, can become gods just like them. They can certainly call themselves "Christian" if they want to, though - that's their right - and it's my right to determine whether or not I think it is an accurate description. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-14-2007 at 12:01 AM. |
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#765 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#766 | ||||||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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What I've noticed from observing the strongly religious over time is a certain inability to see beyond what I would call fairly minor divisions. Continually seeing the glass as half full or less when relating to others, when they are often so close. I can't believe any creator would give its creation such free will only to expect such conformity as an outcome. Quote:
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Relying on absolutes insists that there is only one path and one end, and this thing we call "free will" is simply our ability to not follow that one right path. The right path is not the "free" one, but the one we are supposed to follow. If this were the case, and there were only absolutes, I'd say to god, "why did you bother?" It would be like having twenty children in hopes of turning out one good one, as opposed to trying to lead them all to their own particular happiness. Simply put, why give your creation free will if you don't want them to use it in any way other than the one you intended? Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#767 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Forgive the enormity of this response, brownjenkins!
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![]() I think that there is an element to this that being an outsider looking in on religions, with a different personal way of life, the differences that they consider important may not look important to you because of your different values. But I agree with your main point that many times, people do focus too much on the issues of division. Quote:
What everyone needs to be saved is to faith in Christ. The reason that this is so important, in my opinion, is that when you believe, Christ enters you and transforms your actions so that you behave in pure ways. It isn't you being more holy than other people, but God's holiness shining through you. And as one proceeds in one's relationship with him, and his nature enters one more and more fully, his personality dominates. Some Christians get arrogant and nasty because they believe that they have God and thus are holier than others, not understanding that it is God who is holy and who saved them. Whatever they have, if anything (sometimes I'd say that such people don't have real relationships with God, and such behavior certainly doesn't come from God. True Christianity is characterized by humility), it comes from God and not from them, so arrogance about it is absurd. But it is true that God focuses to a large extent on the purity of his people. He wants to get rid of evil, sin, all dark actions and thoughts. The more people are freed of these things, the more joyful their everyday lives are and the more good they are as people. I've met some Christians like this, who truly live as God does, and they are very unassuming and are the kindest, most loving people I know. With some of them, love just oozes out of them. You can see it in their eyes and faces, can feel it, and it is there in all their actions. That isn't to say that there aren't non-Christians who are also very loving. There are, and some of them, I think, have genuine relationships with Jesus or at least the Law without knowing it. King David in Psalms talked about how dearly he loved the words of the Law and meditated on all the Lord's decrees. I know that my position may look elitist or arrogant, but I don't think it is. Because God saves us- we don't save ourselves, so we are unworthy and are merely made worthy by God's grace. And that grace is available for everyone. Also, God predestined us to have it, so we cannot claim glory for ourselves in having taken what he gave us. Yet the basic religious viewpoint is this: God gives grace to people. Then his purity fills them and their lives are transformed. Since their lives are transformed and filled with God, they then behave in kind, loving and pure ways. They sometimes mess up, but God teaches them steadily and purifies them. Thus their actions are right and those of people who don't have God in their hearts, and hence don't have his purity sanctifying and purifying them, often naturally come out wrong. Jesus said, "out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." So if one is just living one's own life in one's own way, then what comes out of one's mouth and actions isn't likely to be the same as what comes out of the mouth and actions of one who has God in his or her heart. Quote:
As for you, you know me and so don't think I'm lying, but you don't know that what I experience is any more reliable than the experiences people have in any other religion. So logically you wouldn't know which to pursue, or even if any of them is valid. My answer is as follows. I believe that if you pray for the true, real God to reveal him or her or itself to you, and truly seek him/her/it in prayer with an open heart. I would strongly advise praying too for an open heart and mind, since often we can't really provide that on our own, at least nowhere near as well as God can. If you do that sincerely, I believe that Jesus Christ will respond to you. Then you will know from personal experience who the real God is, and you certainly won't need my experience or the experiences of anyone from any other religion to tell you. You could then decide for yourself what you believe, rather than going on guesswork about God, as you currently are. Quote:
Minus God, we have the pleasures of this world to immerse ourselves in, but these are potentially transitory. Pain is meaningless. Life is meaningless and without value. Morality comes purely from humans and only exists for the utilitarian ordering of society, but then, the ordering of society in utterly twisted ways is also acceptable, if it is useful for us. If it is useful for us to kill our children (I'm talking about outside of the womb, at the moment), that is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing of value in a child. In fact, if it is of value to us to kill anyone, that might be good (since all that is good is what is good for oneself on a personal level, when it comes down to it). Life as a criminal might make the most sense, if we can be pretty sure we'll get away with the crime and the gain is sufficient. Whatever I feel makes me happiest and I feel most benefits me is fine. So if someone comes around tomorrow and beats you up and tortures you to death, that's just as fine as getting engaged to be married. It's all meaningless. And as we control our own fates, any stronger force might come along, a force of nature, a random fluke, or someone else's self-centered cruelty, and could abruptly destroy you. Life is a constant state of meaningless, pointless selfishness. There's no point to it except giving oneself whatever pleasure one can, knowing that one's way of life may be destroyed at any moment and believing that after one dies, one is erased and made as though one never was. That's a pretty dismal worldview. So in view of that as the only alternative, seeking God is the most logical course. Though one might be just so immersed in one's pleasurable current lifestyle that one doesn't want God to come into it. The trouble with twofold. Firstly, if God does exist, then one's pleasurable lifestyle might be immoral. As you have repeatedly pointed out, moral values that come from humans are relative. That doesn't mean that God's are, or that right and wrong don't exist on an absolute level. If one purposely skips looking for the truth, one may be called to account for that by God after death, before death or whenever. Secondly, it goes on the faulty assumption that one's current pleasurable lifestyle is more pleasant or better in the short or long run to continue with than whatever God might have in mind. Maybe it is, but if God is good, it isn't. Quote:
But I know that you think one can't know the truth, because it's all relative. And you think that, very logically, because you assume that knowledge comes from humans. Humans might be wrong. So one can't be sure of anything, so nothing is absolute. Yet all the same, you seek to come as close as you can to what the state of reality is (and when I say truth, I mean the state of reality), because you know that you'll probably make more mistakes if you don't seek to learn more about the state of reality. So truth is essential for ordinary, day to day life just as much as it is for the afterlife. I personally didn't begin thinking seriously about the afterlife until a month or two ago. But I've been thinking about truth from day 1. And people don't go to college to be taught lies. They go to college (hopefully) because they hope to learn something more about the state of reality. Maybe that knowledge will improve their quality of life down the line. So many people care about truth, at least on some level, and the closer one is to truth in whatever subject, the less likely it is that one's life will be fraught with error in that subject. Quote:
But anyway, what's wrong with the view that there is one path and one end, in your opinion? And a second question: what's worse about that view, in your opinion, than the view that people live meaningless and often tortured lives here, with self-centered pleasure-fulfillment the most logical course, and with everyone ending up erased in the end anyway? Quote:
I also don't believe that the Bible is clear about what happens in hell. One passage says body and soul are destroyed in hell. Another passage, one from Daniel, says that hell involves people receiving everlasting disgrace. A passage in Revelation describes the smoke, or the sign of their destruction, rising forever and ever, yet this doesn't have to mean that they are forever being tortured. Though there are many passages in the Bible that say there will be eternal fire, there is only one passage in the Bible that explicitly says people will be tortured forever, and that one is in Revelation, vision-form. In a word from the Lord given in the Old Testament, God said that Elijah would return before the coming of the Christ. This was fulfilled in John the Baptist, yet John was not a reincarnated Elijah. He had the same spirit as Elijah, which is a different part of a person than the body and soul. The scripture says body and soul are destroyed in hell, but it doesn't mention the spirit. The spirit, which may encompass a person's beliefs or ideology, their motivations, drives and views, may be what is tortured forever and ever. And that torture is refutation and disgrace. Hitler is disgraced forever, his views and actions utterly condemned. So his spirit is right now enduring torture. And John the Baptist was Elijah's spirit. So that's my view on hell. I think hell destroys the body and soul, as the Bible says, but doesn't torture them forever. I think the damned are annihilated. It's up to God whether or not he'll create someone for temporary purposes and then make them disappear after he's through with their purpose. He is all knowing, and hence is in the best position to decide whether or not that is best. It is human arrogance to say that he couldn't possibly be right in making this choice, or the choice that pain or evil exist on the temporary basis he has given them. Quote:
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A God who predestines his creatures to be with him forever, and is in control of their futures and lives, is one who clearly cares about them intimately. He cares about them enough to ensure that those he has chosen reach him. Which means he is picking the "rat" up out of the cave and bringing it to his bosom, rather than waiting to see which one finds its way out. That is another problem I have with free will. The emphasis on personal achievement. If we make our own decisions in our lives, choosing our own actions and fates, then while God calls to us and seeks that we come near to him, we always have the option of refusing. Hence our eternal destinies are in our own hands, and hence our salvation doesn't come only from God but also from us. And we also have the freedom to turn away from God at any time after the initial encounter, which means that our sanctification comes not only from God but also from us. In fact, to rejoice in salvation at all, we must have faith in ourselves, and in our own capability to hold to God to the end as he holds to us. So humility is, to a pretty significant extent, voided. For it really is human achievement as well as divine intervention by which we are saved. Which, in my view, stinks. But I don't think that all who believe in free will have fully thought that through or behave in the logical ways their beliefs should lead them to behave in. So many Christians believe in free will and aren't at all arrogant, but are very humble. By the same token, many atheists or agnostics also don't follow their beliefs through to their logical conclusions, and rather than leaving pleasure-obsessed, self-centered lives, they lead lives that do assume certain moral values on a basis of good and bad, right and wrong, and what's fair or unfair, even though they don't believe that these values exist. People do tend to be inconsistent.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-14-2007 at 03:53 AM. |
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#768 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Would you call a Muslim a Christian? Probably not. And the average Muslim probably doesn't think of himself as a Christian either. But maybe in God's eyes he is one. Who cares about God's eyes, in this case? The term "Muslim" and the term "Christian" and the term "Mormon" are simply labels that describe belief systems, and since the Mormon belief system has very serious differences from the Christian belief system, they aren't considered to be Christian. I'll probably respond to the rest of your post later. At the moment, after all the time I spent on responding to brownjenkins, I don't have time.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#769 | ||
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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As for the Spirit, God IS spirit. He is everywhere and everything. But specifically, the "Spirit of God" is usually used as a metaphor for prophecy (Ezekiel of course being a prophet) e.g. Ezekiel 11:24 Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. As for Elohim, God goes back and forth between plural and singular in the Torah. But regardless, plural doth not a Trinity make. Plus, I don't think Queen Elizabeth II is a Trinity, for all she may use the royal "we." EDIT: Just to respond to this: Quote:
John Foxe, Acts and Monuments, central martyr text of Anglicanism. "Now I besech the liuyng God which hath receaued me to his mercy and brought to passe that I dye stedfast and vndefiled in his truth, at vtter defiaunce and detestation of all Papisticall and Antichristian doctrine, I besech him (I say) to kepe and defend all his chosen, for his names sake, from the tyranny of the Byshop of/ Rome that Antichrist, and from the assault of al his satellites." Acts and Monuments, 1570 edition, Book 10, pages 1638-9 From a series of tracts called the Millennial Harbinger, 1833 "The antichristian power, whether it be called Papistical, Mahometan, Pagan, or Atheistic, will as certainly be destroyed as Jesus reigns in heaven. "
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 02-14-2007 at 10:15 AM. |
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#770 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
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I knew about the 144,000 and I think I remember reading somewhere that they didn't believe in the Trinity too. I guess just reading those little Watchtower pamplets gives a pretty narrow view ![]() |
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#771 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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More: from the current webpage of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod
"To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine "that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified," the judgment of the Lutheran confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds." I rather think calling the papacy the antichrist counts as calling Catholics unChristian...
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#772 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
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Wow. They are mean...
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ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide |
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#773 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
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The Seventh Day Adventists also tend to refer to the Pope as the antichrist and Rome is the Babylon spoken of in Revelation. |
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#774 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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lol, Hector.
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![]() Speaking of doctrinal differences...http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html |
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#775 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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First, the disciples who preached the message you see in the New Testament died for their beliefs. You don't die for what you know is a lie. That makes them first class witnesses, who plainly believed that what they were saying is the truth. Secondly, many details in the New Testament are things that would likely have caused division, and which the disciples would have profitted by mentioning. There also are issues of division that the Early Church had to deal with, and which they would have been tempted to just include words from Jesus about it that would have solved the issue. The fact that they didn't tamper with his words or with the events, but put down many that made the church look bad and didn't put in answers that would have resolved division shows that they were seeking accuracy with great care. You also mention self-fulfilling prophecies. About some prophecies, such as the ass, you are completely correct that he could have just fulfilled that on purpose. Yet there were many prophecies that Jesus couldn't have fulfilled have fulfilled on purpose. For instance, the date of his birth (I think that Daniel predicted the date at which he would come), the fact that he would be born in Bethlehem, his betrayal, his crucifixion (pierced for our transgressions), his resurrection (the Messiah would see the light of life after dying, and would divide spoils with the strong), and the destruction of Jerusalem which Daniel prophesied would follow the Messiah's death. Those are a few examples that immediately spring to mind. I think that I can come up with more though, if these aren't enough for you. Quote:
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But no, I wasn't arguing that the reference to God's Spirit must be a different member of the Trinity. I was pointing out the fact that in this passage of Ezekiel, God, who is roving to and fro, seeking someone to pray for Israel, says, "Who shall we find to pray for us?" He refers to himself as a plurality. Quote:
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But the point you and Sis are making is well made, that even if right now there isn't accusation of heresy and severe conflict going on between the major denominations, in the past, there was such conflict and division. It doesn't happen much anymore, but it did then. So if you or sisterandcousinandaunt still have a problem on this point, I'd refer you both to my post 750. My main response to the issue of denominational differences is there.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-14-2007 at 12:53 PM. |
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#776 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Lief, God is OUR father; there's no need for a Son of God in the Jesus sense. Every Shabbat, we recite a prayer that refers to him as "Avinu Malkenu" = Our Father, Our King in Hebrew. I stand by the fact that (not wishing to get into attempting to disprove the New Testament, which can only get me into trouble, given that there are about a billion Christians...) there's no reason to see the Messiah as the Son of God or part of a godhead in the Old Testament, unless you reread New Testament ideas back into it.
As for the holy spirit, I assume you're looking at Psalm 51:[11] Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. But holy is an adjective. God's spirit, the spirit of God, the divine (literal) inspiration that is given to the blessed, is holy - it is a holy spirit. But it is not The Holy Spirit that Milton conceived of as brooding, dove-like on the abyss, nor the dove the descended at Jesus' baptism. And on the other point, I'd say the current webpage of the Lutheran Synod of Missouri might be more recent than the 16th century, although it still holds 16th century beliefs (hey, Christianity's a 1st century belief, and Judaism older than that...)
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#777 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Well, the Jesus as the Son of God (or not the Son of God), is a major difference between Christianity and Judaism.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#778 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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No, Nurv.
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#779 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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I really don't know anything about Judaism. Heh. Sorry Count.
Errr, what do you mean The Son of God?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#780 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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oh, sis is just making the point that I said we're all god's children, so it's the definite article that matters. Jesus is A son of god, just as I am. See?
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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