Discussion Thread Number 4 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Nice post Rian. I will reply to it tomorrow.

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But what with the mind projecting? That bothers me a little. We have to agree, can two persons have a mental conversation without opening (at least partly) their minds to each other?

What do you think, Val? And you also, Udu, our Osanwe Kenta expert?

Gordis, that is a difficult question to answer, because the very essence of Osanwe-kenta, at least to be of any use, requires the mind to be "open," which Penegolodh tells us is the natural condition of Elves and Men, with Elves of course being the more inclined to use Osanwe-kenta.

If either the two parties senses that the other should be attempting to deceive while engaged in mind conversation, it is obvious from the below that that individual can exercise "Unwill" and retreat from the other's mind. No mortal, elf or vala can intrude where Unwill is exercised. However, in my opinion, should the hroa (body) be in such a state of distress, ie being tortured, the person might feel that it is better for the sake of avoiding pain to let the other read his or her mind.

"'Openness' is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged. In 'Arda Unmarred' (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil)_openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into 'privacy' (aquapahtie).
"Though in 'Arda Unmarred' openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill."

Does this answer the question?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Gordis, I loved the Miriel's mouth agape like a fish taken out of the water, and that Ilmenzor would cease breathing entirely had he not needed the breath to speak with, hating the smells so much. That was cool!

Thanks, Lotesse.
I believe that is what the nazgul usually did when dealing with orcs, trolls and Fell Beasts.

[Lotesse]

Rian - nice comeback 2 Khamul! I like the tone Rian takes, going from hot to cold with contained and hugely miffed fury. I wonder when those two will actually start throwing punches; theyu both hate each other so much! Or actually, I have a feeling that Rian hates Khamul more than the other way around. I think Khamul doesn't really have love & hate emotions, per sey, but I could be wrong - he's not mine.

Shah - I don't know where to have Viv & Ray meet up. I'm kinda lost for an idea right now. I guess I want to wait a minute and see how the RPG Tuesday's gonna play out. If you have some ideas, PM me; I'll be around off & on for the rest of the afternoon.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

Gordis, that is a difficult question to answer, because the very essence of Osanwe-kenta, at least to be of any use, requires the mind to be "open," which Penegolodh tells us is the natural condition of Elves and Men, with Elves of course being the more inclined to use Osanwe-kenta.

If either the two parties senses that the other should be attempting to deceive while engaged in mind conversation, it is obvious from the below that that individual can exercise "Unwill" and retreat from the other's mind. No mortal, elf or vala can intrude where Unwill is exercised. However, in my opinion, should the hroa (body) be in such a state of distress, ie being tortured, the person might feel that it is better for the sake of avoiding pain to let the other read his or her mind.

"'Openness' is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged. In 'Arda Unmarred' (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil)_openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into 'privacy' (aquapahtie).
"Though in 'Arda Unmarred' openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill."

Does this answer the question?

Thanks, Udu. I am not sure though, what it means in our particular case. Could you be more specific?

We are not in Arda Unmarred...

As I see it (though I am NOT sure I am right):

The ML's mind is closed of course, almost completely, by default. I think he opens it slightly for a particular person, always another nazgul, just to unable the passage of thoughts. And being more powerful he opens only a small portion of his mind.
But I am afraid, if he tries to talk to Val, even that small portion of ML's mind, which Valandil would be able to "FEEL", would appear too evil and powerful to feel normal..

Of course, in LOTR he projected thoughts (e.g. to Frodo, when he ordered him to stop at the Ford), but then he was not concerned with remaining incognito.
So . I would say no talking with Val is possible.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Maybe Maggie could have it out with Khamul and the Chancellor over this, if you guys want to.

Hah! I was waiting for an opening like that, and dithering over asking for one...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

How so?
The library is in Minas Aran Tower, Elvish books on the third floor there. Rian and Sapthan are talking near the fountain IN FRONT of the library, but NOT in the library. So if it were a library book, it had been misplaced or stolen.

Oh, I thought you were talking about when Rian and Earniel were in the library yesterday, looking at books.

Well, since she was with the assistant librarian, and for other reasons, I don't see how that charge would hold, but we'll see, if you guys want to go that route.

ps - I liked that breathing thing, too! Interesting concept!

TD - thanks! But I can't think of what there would possibly be in a book of verses made by her father and mother and in her possession since it was given to her. But I can see how Khamul would want to investigate it - from his POV, who knows what's in that book? But I can ALSO see how Rian would not let that happen, unless over her dead body! Well, we'll see how it plays out, I guess!

Udu - how is Sapthan going to react to this? I hope you can post!

And re the Val mind thing - that took me back at first, too, until I realized that Val thinks the guy is his cousin or whatever, and friendly to him. But it's up to the people involved.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Rian - nice comeback 2 Khamul! I like the tone Rian takes, going from hot to cold with contained and hugely miffed fury.

Thanks; she knows she's a bit of an underdog against a man who is stronger than she is and who works at the Uni, so she's going all out.

I wonder when those two will actually start throwing punches; theyu both hate each other so much!

heehee!
"In this corner, in the silver elven trunks, Rian of Gondolin; in the other corner, in the black trunks, Khamul of Mordor!"

Or actually, I have a feeling that Rian hates Khamul more than the other way around. I think Khamul doesn't really have love & hate emotions, per sey, but I could be wrong - he's not mine.

Yes, I think you're right on both counts. What do you say, TD?

Originally Posted by Maggie

Hah! I was waiting for an opening like that, and dithering over asking for one...

"And wait! In the THIRD corner, in Feanorean red, is Professor Mahtaliel! and in the FOURTH corner, in Nazgul invisible trunks is the Chancellor!"

*ding ding* Let's rock! *massive dogpile in the middle of the ring*

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Hah! I was waiting for an opening like that, and dithering over asking for one...

Go on, LMM! Another fight with the Chancellor! What will you choose now to bang on his desk? A hammer?
BTW, to add some fuel to your flames, make Raisa come to Mahtaliel and tell her that the Chancellor has re-assigned her to supervise the Public Library. So you are left without your fav. assistant.

Originally Posted by Rian

Well, since she was with the assistant librarian, and for other reasons, I don't see how that charge would hold, but we'll see, if you guys want to go that route.

It is up to TD and Udu and to you.

Originally Posted by Rian

And re the Val mind thing - that took me back at first, too, until I realized that Val thinks the guy is his cousin or whatever, and friendly to him. But it's up to the people involved.

No, Val's post was all right. Really, Valandil adresses his cousin, why wouldn't he?
I started to discuss this matter NOT because I want Val to edit, but because I am unsure what to write in MY next post. Will the ML hear Val? Will he be able to reply?

[Rían]

oh, fun! Mahtaliel showed up!

(gee, "listening" to Rian's words in Maggie's post was an eye-opener! Rian was a tad upset, wasn't she?! )

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Well, it's entirely possible that she'll be banging Khamul's head on the desk this time. At the moment she's waiting for his response to Rian before really interefering, but if he doesn't return the book she'll be dragging him before the Chancellor demanding to know what in arda the Chancellor was thinking when he was hired.

[Rían]

interesting threesome - Khamul, the Chancellor, and Mahtaliel, the latter having NO idea of the connection between the first two ... I wonder how the Chancellor's urge to lay low will play against everything else ...

[Lotesse]

Lady M, I love Mahtaliel coming in to the picture; that's ideal!

[The last sane person]

Hah! Well, this is turning out to be interesting!

Lotesse, What class does she and Ray share on tuesdays? (bleh, that was a tongue twister)

[Lotesse]

Is that a rhetorical trick question? 'Cause the truth is, I'm not sure; I have to go back and double-check her class schedule.
O.K., just checked it and all she has is Military History from 4-5 pm, but who's even teaching that class? And it says only Viv is the only student in it. I was gonna have Viv audit wine-tasting, which is 4-6 pm, but now Butterbeer isn't writing anymore so, I don't know. Viv has a pretty much open day, ALL day long. She's gonna get so freakin' antsy.

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Thanks, Udu. I am not sure though, what it means in our particular case. Could you be more specific?

We are not in Arda Unmarred...

As I see it (though I am NOT sure I am right):

The ML's mind is closed of course, almost completely, by default. I think he opens it slightly for a particular person, always another nazgul, just to unable the passage of thoughts. And being more powerful he opens only a small portion of his mind.
But I am afraid, if he tries to talk to Val, even that small portion of ML's mind, which Valandil would be able to "FEEL", would appear too evil and powerful to feel normal..

Of course, in LOTR he projected thoughts (e.g. to Frodo, when he ordered him to stop at the Ford), but then he was not concerned with remaining incognito.
So . I would say no talking with Val is possible.

Indeed, we are not in "Arda Unmarred," so this "openness of mind" is withheld. In any event, no one can "read anyone else's mind" unless the other person is willing to have his or hers read. I think that it is within the Professor's world to have varying states of openness, or like "compartments" in the mind. One can be closed while another is open.

Perhaps it works like this: One person wishes to talk to another through thought-speech. He/she sends out feelers by thought, such as, "Let me in. I wish to talk to you." The other person can either reject or accept.

If Valandil senses that the ML is not someone he wishes to talk with, he can quickly close his mind. The ML can throw out all the thought projections or suggestions he wants, but the receiver might quickly sense that the ML's intentions were less than honorable.

Does this help?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Lotesse, What class does she have that both She and Ray share on tuesdays?

Gee, sounds like some word problem in maths!

Shah - check out my latest Narnia pants quote

Udu, Udu - what's Sapthan going to do at this point? Just defer to the head librarian at this point? Or let Prof. M. take over?

[The last sane person]

Lotesse, um, well, Ray gets off at six, so should Viv meet him at his house? She already knows where it is, since he took her to his little stable next to it to give her laslech...And he does keep his door locked, so if he finds her IN his place, he will know she is a little lock pick. Not that he'd mind having a mischievious girlfreind....

[Rían]

oh, that reminds me -

Val or anyone else - where would an expert Elven archer be able to practice in town? Does Val have a practice range or something at his digs in town, or is there a range somewhere that Alagos could use? He'll kind of be in the killing time mode while his sis is taking her classes, and I'm sure he'd like to get some shooting in, and it would be fun to describe it - I have some ideas already ...

[The last sane person]

Well, In Ray's park that I was drawing, I kinda turned it into an abandoned training field that Marty an Ray are fixing up. A great way for Tyaron, Alagos, Ray and Marty to meet.