Theology III

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

No, they're not. And there are a whole lot of Christians that are neither Protestant nor Catholic.

Yes they are. Even Methdists exchange pastors every coupla years.

And by institution, I mean they are organized, they center around a pastor, and a loose hierarchy below him for the most part.

[Curufin]

Quakers aren't.



Of course, Protestants don't always claim them, either.

[Nautipus]

I love Quackers. Some neat stuff to read about there. Now THAT, my friends would be a fun discussion, I think.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

No, they're not.

I think he meant that denominations are arranged around loose institutions . . . he's covered it already in his most recent posts, though, explaining he was referring to pastors or groups of elders and such. He wasn't denying that non-denominationals like himself, and like I used to be before I became Catholic, tend to be detached.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

And there are a whole lot of Christians that are neither Protestant nor Catholic.

He wasn't denying the existence of the Orthodox.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Quakers aren't.

There's a ton of variety in Protestantism.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

I love Quackers. Some neat stuff to read about there. Now THAT, my friends would be a fun discussion, I think.

Yes. I don't know much about them at all.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

Yes they are. Even Methdists exchange pastors every coupla years.

And by institution, I mean they are organized, they center around a pastor, and a loose hierarchy below him for the most part.

This just MYSTIFIES me.

First, "Protestants" aren't the same kind of group as "Catholics." Catholics have a top boss. His title is "The Pope." 'Protestants' come in a hundred types of organized flavors (like Lutheran, or United Methodist), and each of those has some organizational table. But there are other Christians (Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, just as a few) who have other systems...and lots of Christians who aren't members of any church at all.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

This just MYSTIFIES me.

First, "Protestants" aren't the same kind of group as "Catholics." Catholics have a top boss. His title is "The Pope." 'Protestants' come in a hundred types of organized flavors (like Lutheran, or United Methodist), and each of those has some organizational table. But there are other Christians (Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, just as a few) who have other systems...and lots of Christians who aren't members of any church at all.

He didn't deny any of that, Sis.

[Curufin]

*raises eyebrow*

It's Quaker not Quacker. We're not ducks.

I was raised Quaker, btw, and still consider myself to be one. A pagan one, it's true, but still Quaker. The two are in no way mutually exclusive.

[Mari]

I was raised in a Protestant Church (well actually, it was Low Reformed, but recently it joined up with High Reformed, Re-reformed and New Re-reformed to form PKN: Protestant Churches Netherlands).
We most certainly do have an institution. There is a local circle overarched by the regional, provincial and national circle. It is registered as an organization/institution and the people in the national circle make up the "guidelines" the rest has to follow. True, they don't make rules and there isn't one person on top of it all, but it's an orderly whole nonetheless.
Besides that, the church is part of an international network that meets up at least once a year to discuss problems like fragmentation, how to interpret some parts of the teachings, etc.
It's not like people follow one charismatic leader. That is the case with the Evangelists and a lot of Baptist churches that split off from Evangelists.
I myself also go to a Baptist Church that split off from the Protestants and their structure of the service is pretty much the same as in my own Church (yes I attend two) only the focus is not as much on God, as on Jesus. And in my Protestant Church people (95% is 70+ years old) think of faith and worshiping as grave business whereas the Baptists celebrate and rejoice.

Perhaps this is different from the Protestants in America, I don't know, but here some High Protestant churches are still very close to Catholicism, and the open churches with charismatic leaders and no organization at all are the Evangelists. Protestants are perceived to be boring and very very strict and too institutionalized. (The Dutch Bible Belt has indeed some very very strict religious villages: wear black, wear a skirt, wear a hat and whatmore)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

"A Protestant Church. My point is 2-fold.

First, There is One-Holy-And-Apostolic-Roman-Catholic-Church which covers people commonly referred to as "Catholic." Like a town that has a mayor.

'Protestant' churches are neighboring towns. They each have their own mayor. The Episcopalians have a mayor, the Church of Christ has a mayor, and so on.

Then there are other Christians, mostly "Protestant" who 'live in the suburbs'. They have neighborhoods, but no 'mayor'. They are not registered members of any church, but they identify as "Christian", may attend services around Christmas or Easter, or get married by a Christian officiant. Not all of them have a paster, or formal church organization.

They differ from their neighbors who are Muslim, or Jewish, or Bahai, but they don't have the same "organization" that the denominations do.

Protestant qua Protestant is not the same, organizationally, as Catholic.

[Mari]

I'm sorry Sis, I don't think I get it

For as far as I know this:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Then there are other Christians, mostly "Protestant" who 'live in the suburbs'. They have neighborhoods, but no 'mayor'. They are not registered members of any church, but they identify as "Christian", may attend services around Christmas or Easter, or get married by a Christian officiant.

could describe a Protestant (though I'm certain this goes for a lot of other denominations, including Catholics) if I understand it correctly.
But this:

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Not all of them have a paster, or formal church organization.

describes Baptists or Evangelists.
If you are a Protestant, then you are a formal member of the church, whether you go or not, and yearly you get asked to donate some money. You are registered and you are assigned to a dominee (viccar? priest? pastor?) and pastoral worker who you can turn to.
The whole housegroup or circle thing is not a Protestant thing, though you can attend 'courses' etc. which are often in someone's home, but led by the dominee or pastoral worker. Someone who studied for it anyway.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Mari

I'm sorry Sis, I don't think I get it

For as far as I know this:

could describe a Protestant (though I'm certain this goes for a lot of other denominations, including Catholics) if I understand it correctly.
But this:

describes Baptists or Evangelists.
If you are a Protestant, then you are a formal member of the church, whether you go or not, and yearly you get asked to donate some money. You are registered and you are assigned to a dominee (viccar? priest? pastor?) and pastoral worker who you can turn to.
The whole housegroup or circle thing is not a Protestant thing, though you can attend 'courses' etc. which are often in someone's home, but led by the dominee or pastoral worker. Someone who studied for it anyway.

Not here, Mari.

"Protestant" is a fairly generic term in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

I wish I could draw a chart.

It would have Christians starting as 2 trunks, RC and Eastern, then the RC branch splits again at Martin Luther, and becomes twigs for various groups. "Protestant" encompasses the whole batch of stems and twigs that starts with Luther.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Oh, and without a state church, no one asks you to donate money. You have to walk in and volunteer.

*bashes rule*

[Mari]

I just checked the Dutch pages on Protestantism, but it's very confusing. Too many churches that call themselves "reformed" or something like that.
Apparently the church I'm used to, is the largest church in the Netherlands though. I never knew

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

It would have Christians starting as 2 trunks, RC and Eastern, then the RC branch splits again at Martin Luther, and becomes twigs for various groups. "Protestant" encompasses the whole batch of stems and twigs that starts with Luther.

More like Christians starting as one trunk, then a shoot called Assyrian splitting off, then an Armenian, a Coptic, an Ethiopian, and a Syrian shoot breaking off to make a Miuphysite branch, and THEN the big Chalcedonian branch splits into RC and Eastern, and everything follows as you state. Assuming, of course, that we're only considering groups that are still around today.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Arien the Maia

*blushes*. thank you I'm finding this thread very interesting....although I'm just a lurker right now b/c of time constraints...again...blame the kids

I made some new arguments and gave some new supports in my voluminous posts. A lot of it was the same as it's always been on these threads, though, just as the replies and follow-up have been. I keep feeling as though I've proved all my points so well, and then other people feel differently. Oh well. I love this kind of discussion.


Nautipus, I'll wait for your less exhausted reply .

Too bad you don't live nearby . Oh well. Hey, do you live near Washington DC? I'm taking a journalism class there this summer.

[Azrael]

Hey, im new this place. Anyways im wanting to join in and debate so yeah...i'll just wait for a moment to really jump in and talk but wanted to say HI. For now I'll tell you I'm a hardcore Jesus Freak, but in this debate I will question everyone so that even the ones I agree with will be hit hard....I think its great to question everyone so that they can realize why they believe what they believe instead of believing out of habit. O and if this all sounds weird I'm sorry, its late here.

[Curufin]

Welcome Azrael. I think if you've read this thread you'll see quite easily that there's nobody here believing what they believe out of habit...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Azrael

Hey, im new this place. Anyways im wanting to join in and debate so yeah...i'll just wait for a moment to really jump in and talk but wanted to say HI. For now I'll tell you I'm a hardcore Jesus Freak, but in this debate I will question everyone so that even the ones I agree with will be hit hard....I think its great to question everyone so that they can realize why they believe what they believe instead of believing out of habit. O and if this all sounds weird I'm sorry, its late here.

Welcome! Great to have some new blood .

Just to let you know, the people (Christians and non-Christians alike) present are active on this thread because they do think about what they believe. I don't think you'll find anyone here who just believes out of habit.

I personally recommend that you only question people when you genuinely want to know why they think what they do, rather than to make sure they know their stuff. Because the latter kind of questioning can come across as arrogant, even if it's not meant that way. You aren't our tutor .

I'm very glad you're going to join the discussion!!!

[Curufin]

I personally recommend that you only question people when you genuinely want to know why they think what they do, rather than to make sure they know their stuff. Because the latter kind of questioning can come across as arrogant, even if it's not meant that way. You aren't our tutor.

I agree with Lief here. While it's important to have some type of reason for believing the way you do, those reasons are very personal, and it can seem rather arrogant, or even hostile to question like that. We'd love to have you participate, but maybe it would be best to keep this as a discussion instead of a debate - nobody's going to win this, so we might as well be friendly and non-competitive about it.