Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[IronParrot]

I'm completely new to this thread so I haven't read through all of it, but I have a question for the resident Christians (which may or may not have been answered):

Even if God does exist in the form that you posit, how would we know that the Holy Bible is word for word the Official Word of God? Okay, because God said so. But where did He say so? The Bible, right? So isn't that circular logic? (I'm probably missing something important and obvious here, so please point it out.)

As for my personal beliefs: I have no beef with religion, but I do have a beef with two very major things:

a) When religion attaches itself to matters of state and governance;

b) When the Bible is somehow "protected" from the same deconstructionist, historiographical analysis to which every other written document is subject.

[Lief Erikson]

I really, definitely intend to answer that, Ironparrot. I could answer with a semi successful post tonight, but tomorrow I'm going to be researching that subject in more depth.

No, it's not just because it says so in the Bible. I'll break that circular reasoning right now by saying that. The reason I came to first believe that the Bible is the Word of God is that I heard God speaking through it. It was a spiritual experience, and it has been repeated many times, now. But that's not going to be enough for you, and my research should help to answer your question with evidences that you will find more helpful. Unless RÃ*an, Gwaimir or Aralyn get to it first, I'll respond as soon as I've finished.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Don't forget Wayfarer, and the various other Christians on the board.

I'm actually a half hour past my bed time right now (amazing that I still have it ), so I won't be posting. And of course, there's work tomorrow.

[Lief Erikson]

We're just keeping each other up late now, aren't we . I have/had plans for tonight, so I'll have to get off very soon if I'm to make any headway more on my book!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And I've got to head to bed... Actually, I'm already in bed. I've got to standby my laptop, put it on the desk, turn out the light, get a blanket/sheet, and start snoring!

[Lief Erikson]

Goodnight .

[Rían]

Rats! And I can't get to sleep tonite- it's 1:43 am!! What is this - Christians not able to sleep nite? *yawn* Oh well, someone must need to be prayed for!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
Just to be slightly obnoxious and pose more questions:

here's one we spent most of the semester on in my philosophy of law class:
where does law (in general) come from? morality, or just a human creation to create order in society?
To clarify: there is the first stance (Natural Law Theory), which can be devided into the Thomas Aquinas brand: law is handed down from god, and that is that, or the newer type, in which law is from morality, but our moral codes are not necessarily from god? oh dear, i'm forgetting some stuff, I think i'll have to drag out my textbook...but anyway, i thought it was a pretty interesting question. I might post some quotes from the essays we read later. If people are interested, that is.

Well, it took me awhile, but here's what I think - well, actually, if you pop over to the Good and Evil thread, I posted several posts on there, but I'll put it here, too.

whoops, just re-read your question - I thought you asked where morality came from. Well, I'll answer that one instead I think that it comes from God. In the book of Romans in the Bible, it says that God puts his basic moral code in our hearts, and our own conscience (designed by God and put into us) tells us what's right and wrong. I think this is very evident, both in ourselves and from observing others. The EXACT details may vary slightly, but it doesn't say that every exact little detail of the law is in our heart, and also, I think to a certain degree, what is right for one person might be wrong for another. I'm NOT talking about major things, but some of the minor areas. But the basics are that EVERY person has a basic moral code put into their heart by God, and they KNOW if they're doing something right or wrong.

I think laws are for order, but mainly from our sense of justice, which we have because we KNOW that it's WRONG to hurt other people. And we know this because God puts it into our hearts.

That's one of the major things that the theory of evolution can't explain, BTW - the universal, observable existence of a sense of right/wrong. It's there (often to our dismay!!), and the th. of evolution can't explain it - there must be something wrong with the th. of evolution.

[Rían]

Originally posted by IronParrot
I'm completely new to this thread so I haven't read through all of it, but I have a question for the resident Christians (which may or may not have been answered):

What, no free time to read thru 38 pages??

Even if God does exist in the form that you posit, how would we know that the Holy Bible is word for word the Official Word of God? Okay, because God said so. But where did He say so? The Bible, right? So isn't that circular logic? (I'm probably missing something important and obvious here, so please point it out.)

Yes, that's circular logic. Well, given the fact that there are intelligent people that believe the Bible to be God's word (including Tolkien), there probably are other reasons that exist that they base that belief on. The Good and Evil thread, I think, is starting to get into that. I'll discuss it on one of the two threads soon, but I probably can't post (at least thoughtful posts) for the next 5 days or so because I'm finishing up planning my parents' 50th wedding anniversary party!! (we'll be celebrating in the beautiful Yosemite valley). Yay!!

As for my personal beliefs: I have no beef with religion, but I do have a beef with two very major things:

a) When religion attaches itself to matters of state and governance;

Me too!! I don't know how those darn followers of the religion of atheism have so much influence in our government!! It's very unfair. I'm glad to see you're against that, too, IP!!

b) When the Bible is somehow "protected" from the same deconstructionist, historiographical analysis to which every other written document is subject.

Um, is there some law about this that I'm unaware of??
EDIT -- The above sentence was a joke!
Seriously, IP, could you please elaborate? I doubt if you're saying that the Bible has NEVER been subjected to this type of analysis; are you complaining about people that you have come across that object to this analysis?

Well, off to finish up the party planning - see you guys next week!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Tell your parents I said congratulations on the anniversary, Rian.

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Well, given the fact that there are intelligent people that believe the Bible to be God's word (including Tolkien), there probably are other reasons that exist that they base that belief on.

If you're going to include Tolkien, I'm afraid you're going to have to say "there were intelligent people that believed the Bible to be God's word." Unless you know something I don't know...

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thanks, Rian!

Interesting. I love hearing people's opinions on this kind of stuff. Philosophy is soooo cool. . .*must remember to thank my Prof. from last semester, and tell him I'm taking more philosophy classes. Maybe should have done that before he gave us our grades though. . .*

Right, anyway, law. . .I think law is there for order. Perhaps Locke is a good example for this, and Hobbes as well because they seem to say similar things on this point: When we leave the state of nature, we give up some of our freedoms in exchange for the advantages of living in a society. Of course, Hobbes' state of nature differed from Locke's, but the basic principle is the same. But anyway, back to giving up freedoms...that's where law comes in, because when we enter society, certain boundaries are set up to insure that the basic rights of other humans are not infringed upon. This is mainly Locke here: Life, Liberty, and Property. (sound familiar? I still think Jefferson borrowed from Locke no matter what he says ) Thus law is established that make it clear that certain things are not acceptable, such as killing, maiming, stealing, etc. So, my point is, which I got to in a most roundabout way, is that I think law is from our desire to form order within society and insure that people's rights are protected.

Okay, but that's just the basis for law. Then people get into laws that are based on their leaders' desire for power, and on things taken from the specific moral codes of their religion. This is where things get sticky, as far as I can see. I don't believe law itself or anything of the sort is handed down from god (no, really, I've already said I don't believe in god, or at least worship/respect that particular one); rather, as I said above, it comes from the necessity for order within society. But then when laws get more specific and less about order within society, sometimes they are based on religious moral codes specific to certain religions or even a specific sect. For example, the statue disputed in Griswold v. Connecticut, which criminalized the use of contraceptives. That is, as far as I know, based on religous beliefs, and people thinking such things are immoral based on their religion, and not a universal moral ethic. As we have freedom of religion, that statute seems unconsitutional to me. It was overturned on different grounds, but I think that laws based on moral codes specific to a certain sect/religion are not true to religious freedom. I know it states freedom of worship, but religion extends so far into everyday life that it seems only right that it would count there as well. I'm not being particuarly eloquent, am I? Oh well. *sigh* I haven't eaten all day, I'll blame it on that

As for where morality comes from, well. . .I'll save that for another post, shall I?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Tell your parents I said congratulations on the anniversary, Rian.

OK!

If you're going to include Tolkien, I'm afraid you're going to have to say "there were intelligent people that believed the Bible to be God's word." Unless you know something I don't know...

Why should I use the past tense? Now that JRR is alive in the presence of God, I think he is even MORE convinced that the Bible is God's word! Wouldn't you agree?



EG - You're welcome, and I hope you had a nice bday! Did you see the bday thread? Lots of bday wishes came your way

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hmm, good point.

[Rían]

Shame on you for picking on a poor defenceless old lady, Gwai! You should be helping me cross streets!!

by Gwai
Unless you know something I don't know...

*sees Elvis and JRRT walking down the street*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ack! Tolkien, you traitor! What are you doing with that thing???

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
That's one of the major things that the theory of evolution can't explain, BTW - the universal, observable existence of a sense of right/wrong. It's there (often to our dismay!!), and the th. of evolution can't explain it - there must be something wrong with the th. of evolution.

Could it be that we think it's wrong to kill people because it is not good for the survival of the species if we go around killing everybody we see?
Sorry, you know I can't help myself, Rian.
Anyway, I have found a copy of the Bible and begun to read it...slowly. I'm taking it as a good story, not as the word of God (if He exists).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Sorry, sorry, Rian will not be available for some time. If you would like a reply, please step in line and take a number.

Thank you.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
.

That's one of the major things that the theory of evolution can't explain, BTW - the universal, observable existence of a sense of right/wrong. It's there (often to our dismay!!), and the th. of evolution can't explain it - there must be something wrong with the th. of evolution.

Well, I'm not sure how universal our sense of right and wrong is .

For example:

Numbers 31:

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.
42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men- 43 the community's half-was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites' half, Moses selected one out of every fifty persons and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle.

As a secular atheist humanist, I disagree with the followers of the Bible who believe that -with the express approval of the Lord, who demands His share of the slaves- that murdering all the boys, down to taking new-born babies from their mothers' breasts and smashing their heads against the rocks;

and then murdering all the women who have lain with a man, from old grandmothers to new brides, while keeping the young girls for your own personal use

-is an appropriate way to deal with your enemies.

Of course, since the Lord explicitly approves this, you must agree that this is a morally worthy thing to do.

So I guess your values and mine are not the same.

One rather knotty theological question, for those who believe life begins at conception:

God orders all males to be killed, as well as all women who are not virgins.

So if a pregnant woman - who must be killed to satisfy the Lord- is pregnant with a boy, there's no problem - just shove a spear through the mother's womb. killing them both, and God will be happy.

But if it's a girl, by killing the mother and allowing the female fetus to die, you might be violating God's words- He has after all ordered the enslavement of ALL young girls.

I guess to make sure that you are following the Biblically-endorsed will of the Lord, you'd have to cut the baby out of the womb to check- don't want any more plagues , after all.

[Rían]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Could it be that we think it's wrong to kill people because it is not good for the survival of the species if we go around killing everybody we see?
Sorry, you know I can't help myself, Rian.
Anyway, I have found a copy of the Bible and begun to read it...slowly. I'm taking it as a good story, not as the word of God (if He exists).

(I am still around until early Friday for quick posts - just not my usual long-winded ones)

No "sorry" about it - these are good questions to talk about, and intelligent discussion is a good thing, and very fun, when there's nice people (like you) involved!

Re the Bible - Oh, good, and I'd recommend perhaps starting in the New Testament, then Genesis. Let me know if you would like some more recommendations, or if you would like to ask me any questions. Maybe we should start a new thread, kinda like the "my first time reading the Sil thread", for first-time Bible readers! That would be interesting....

And re your "survival of the species" thought - see, you introduced a moral judgement - you used the word "good". Where did your sense of morality come from? If evolution is just one possibility out of a zillion-plus chances (the one that "happened" to work), then all other chances are just as "good" (or more accurately, none of the possibilities are either bad or good). How can "chance" have good/bad attached to it? (unless we bring in our own judgement, put into us by God, to evaluate things). IOW, it would have been equally "good" for the species to NOT survive, if evolution is the only thing in town...

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Well, I'm not sure how universal our sense of right and wrong is .

Wouldn't you agree that (1) the vast, vast majority of people have a sense of certain things being right or wrong? (2) the underlying principles behind what the vast, vast majority of people believe to be right/wrong are very, very similar? (English-usage note - hmm, vast, vast and very, very.... must find some different modifiers....)

For example:[list of things that don't sound very "loving"]

You know, Grey M, Wayfarer discussed this issue at quite some length in another thread - actually, I think it was this thread - and I think he did a really good job. The Bible is NOT all easy-reading, straightforward stuff - sometimes, it takes some study to understand some of the"tougher" and/or "deeper" stuff. (That's one of the good things about the Bible - it is not trite, and neither are the problems in this world). I really can't go into a long post here, as I do need to finish up packing and planning the party, so could you do a search on Wayfarer's posts in this thread with a keyword of "killing" or something like that? And we can get back into this next week, if you would like, or of course, anyone else can pitch in.

ps - yay! I found the perfect photo album for my parents yesterday! Pretty golden cloth cover, for their golden anniversary. And I found a beautiful silver picture frame for the copy of their wedding picture (black and white) that I made - it's really coming together well! *puff, puff*