06-17-2008, 05:35 AM | #741 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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06-17-2008, 12:33 PM | #742 | |||||
Elf Lord
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However, I will mention, and this is an important point, that there are many very big similarities between the religions worldwide. They have numerous parallel doctrines, such as a Trinity-like Godhead structure, a resurrection of the dead, the existence of heaven and hell, demons and angels, a great flood story, a savior story, a devil, things of this sort. They often have a lot of parallels with Christianity. People could make various arguments about why this might be. My view is that these people have been hearing God in part and filling in a lot of the rest for themselves. They just never received the full picture. There also is undoubtedly a demonic influence. But those religious parallels, which are many and worldwide, to me indicate a commonality of hearing the same Person. Other conclusions are also possible, of course . Quote:
We should have good laws, regardless of whether or not the majority wants them. But in this country, interpretations of law are not always going to be good because we have loads of different ideas about what good is. Remember the Dred Scott case. It's therefore an unstable system, which can be either good or bad depending on what the people are like. That is dangerous, for "the people" easily go for the bad, as they did in Imperialism, Colonialism and Slavery days. A system that holds to eternal good is much more likely to be a healthy one, though. Whether or not people want the good doesn't matter. If the majority don't want good laws, if they'd rather live with slavery in the South and segregation in the North, tough chicken. A law based on the religious principles of a true religion could provide a system of real justice. Quote:
I pointed out that abortion (which has killed somewhere around a billion people in the West since legalized), sexual immorality (which has killed millions through STDs), colonialism and imperialism and racist slavery, each of which in turn has killed millions or hundreds of millions, and Democratic, Fascist and Communist rebellions (which also killed millions worldwide, sometimes through genocide), all proliferated when the Catholic Church lost its political power and all spread in spite of the Catholic Church's rigorous condemnation of them. All were extremely limited or non-existent when the Catholic Church had enormous power during the Medieval Ages. All resulted from the new power of nations to breach the religious dictates of Rome. Therefore Religious Freedom was their cause. You've said you disagree with all that, but you haven't made any argument or explanation as to why I'm wrong. I'll point out that several people in these forums have even argued "religious freedom" when we're talking about the legality of abortion or sexual immorality. Colonialism, Imperialism, Racist Slavery and Enlightenment or Reformation era rebellions were all earlier forms of the expression of this freedom from the Catholic Church, which is a freedom of religion. I'd like to know where my logic fails, why you reject the argument. Quote:
That is not why most religious people do charity. We do it as an expression of love for humanity and for God.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-17-2008, 02:34 PM | #743 | |||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Still, it depends on what you consider a religion next to merely a sect for example. In the USA the Scientology is I believe considered a religion, whereas here it is considered a sect and is currently under investigation for a number of offenses. I've been told that 'Jedi' has become a recognized religion in Australia, by popular vote, although I have not checked the veracity of it. In that aspect, I agree, not all 'religions' should be treated equal. Quote:
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You get the idea. Finding the origins of myths, to discover where they were borrowed, or possibly risen independantly has always been a fascinating field in anthropology. Quote:
Colonialism, rebellions, imperialism and slavery, what on earth has that to do with freedom of religion?! If you think the church put a stop to that if they were still in control, then you're dreaming. Religion, the catholic church included, has done it's fair share of such matters. At some points, sure, they condemned slavery and such out of principle, or out of convenience, at some points they wanted their share of the spoils! Quote:
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06-17-2008, 05:18 PM | #744 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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If you want to talk about Christianity changing, you'd be on far stronger ground to point to issues such as denominationalism. Denominationalism really has made a major dent on traditional interpretations of Christian doctrine. Not in the authoritative teachings of the Vatican, however. Quote:
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Of course, your borrowing and copying idea makes some sense to me on a personal religious level, because I think the flood stories all came from a common source: Noah. But it can't explain it from your perspective as you don't believe in Noah, because you can find the same stories all over the place on different continent and around the world. Quote:
It's a terrifying prospect. Please read this: http://www.abortiontv.com/Words/AbortionistQuotes.htm Here's one of the quotes from an abortionist on that site: "Nobody wants to perform abortions after ten weeks because by then you see the features of the baby, hands, feet. It's really barbaric. Abortions are very draining, exhausting, and heartrending. There are a lot of tears. Sometimes patients turn on you. They say, "Let's get out of here," after the abortion, as if you're some dirty person. It's vicious. Then you get these teenyboppers in the office who laugh their way through it. It doesn't mean a thing to them. That bothers me...I do them because I take the attitude that women are going to terminate babies and deserve the same kind of treatment as women who carry babies...I've done a couple thousand, and it turned into a significant financial boon, but I also feel I've provided an important service. The only way I can do an abortion is to consider only the woman as my patient and block out the baby..." Quote:
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But anyway, that whole discussion is irrelevant. Look at Oman and some of the highly conservative Muslim countries like that. Oman has almost zero problem with STDs because it enforces laws against sexual immorality. It's part of their culture, too, that sexual immorality is frowned upon and seen as very wrong. Because of those forces, their problem is very limited. They aren't overrun by porn or images of scantily clad men and women on posterboards all over the place. Their temptations are reduced, the social consequences are higher, it's culturally unacceptable so there's a higher probability you're brought up believing it's wrong, and there's a penalty under law for participating in it. So their STD death toll is much smaller. Because they don't practice freedom of religion. People who migrate from conservative Muslim countries to the West tend to be much more opposed to sexual license than people who have grown up here. Religious freedom definitely created the possibility of a sexual revolution in ways that were previously unknown. Quote:
By the mid-20th century, though, there was a clash between two cultures in the US, a more conservative culture among the parents and a rebellious, hippie culture among the youth. The removal of laws against other religious perspectives and moral viewpoints ended up allowing them to prosper. That's only natural. What we have today is a country of culture conflict, between a massive liberal movement and a conservative movement struggling to hold to its values in the face of erosion from popular viewpoints. Also, you have tons of people calling themselves "Christian" or "Catholic" who aren't interested in holding to the teachings of either the Bible or the Vatican, but simply use the term to say they go to church on Sunday, and then they do what they want with the rest of their lives (which can include whatever sexual or political views they want). The culture of now could only come about because of religious freedom, and this freedom made the sexual revolution and all its corresponding STDs possible. Quote:
Alexander VI was one of the worst popes in history, both ruthless in assassinating political opponents and sexually promiscuous. The future Pope Leo X criticized his appointment to the papacy when he first gained power, saying of Alexander, "Now we are in the power of a wolf, the most rapacious perhaps that this world has ever seen. And if we do not flee, he will inevitably devour us all." Alexander's monstrosities are one of the key reasons that the Reformation occurred. So his having greedily indulged in imperialism isn't too surprising. However, he and Nicholas were the only popes I can find who supported this. The other popes, both before them and after them, made repeated statements denouncing racist slavery. Alexander VI was the last pope I know of who supported imperialism and slavery. Leo X, the pope who immediately followed him, declared that, "Not the Christian religion only, but nature herself, cries out against the state of slavery." Alexander's views were decidedly not the normal Vatican position throughout history. To characterize the papacy by his example is ridiculous. Since all the other popes who addressed the matter between the 15th century and the modern age, with the exception of Nicholas VI, expressly rejected racist slavery (which is the foundation of colonialism and imperialism), we can see what the normal Vatican position on these issues was. Please explain how this is. Do you consider us to be valuable because we have extremely complicated brains? If so, you'd appreciate every human being equally (except, perhaps, for the mentally retarded, who wouldn't be as valuable as other people if this was true).
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-17-2008 at 05:42 PM. |
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06-17-2008, 09:59 PM | #745 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Lief, this is bit OT but are you Catholic? and if so when did you become one? I'm out of the loop ....blame the kids
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06-17-2008, 10:29 PM | #746 |
Elf Lord
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Yes!!! I became one six Eucharists ago! Best decision of my life.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-17-2008, 10:38 PM | #747 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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yea! I'm so happy for you! Converts to Catholicism are usually more enthusiastic about the faith, so good for you! (although I'm a cradle Catholic and I try my best to live by the Church teachings)
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06-17-2008, 11:38 PM | #748 | |||
Elf Lord
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I want to complain very strongly, moderators, about this side shoot in the Theology thread. If Lief wants to debate abortion, he should go to that thread.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 06-17-2008 at 11:40 PM. |
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06-17-2008, 11:41 PM | #749 | |||||||
Kraken King
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I can see why the doctrinal preservation is very helpful, but anything can be taken to far. Quote:
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons Last edited by Nautipus : 06-18-2008 at 12:46 AM. |
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06-18-2008, 03:10 AM | #750 | |||
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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06-18-2008, 04:02 AM | #751 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Anyway, I'm sorry you were both bothered by those comments. My words about abortion were not intended to throw the thread off course. I responded to Eärniel's claim about abortion with one quote and one link, a brief request that she rethink her view because of the risk that she might be supporting genocide, and the sentence, "Your statement about abortion would require too long a response to go into here." I did not present a string of arguments on the subject, and I explicitly stated that I did not intend to. Just one other thing. It has normally been considered decent, at least in my experience on Entmoot in all debates I've been in before, to mention to someone who appears to be going off-topic that this seems to be what they're doing, rather than going straight to the moderators first with a strong complaint. It's a courtesy that's normally offered, at least so far as I've seen. I assure you that I'll offer it to you, if either of you ever seems to be going off-topic. Neither of you needs to worry that I'll throw this thread onto an abortion tangent, and neither of you needed to go to the moderators. I never intended to have an abortion debate here, and I won't make one. In the interests of holding to that, I won't be replying to any of this: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-18-2008 at 04:16 AM. |
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06-18-2008, 04:23 AM | #752 |
The Ñoldóran
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I didn't 'go to the moderators.' The only thing I did is what you see.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
06-18-2008, 05:14 AM | #753 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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I don't share the common modern condemnation of organizations, institutions and hierarchies. It's true that humans in them can become corrupt. But humans as individuals can too. And just as power in the hands of authorities can corrupt, so can "rights" or power in the hands of the common people corrupt them through that same fixation on what is due them, rather than a spirit of generosity. I think that if one looks at the history of the Catholic Church, it is apparent that they did continue to preach the same principles throughout their existence. Individuals in the Church, sometimes even including popes and bishops, didn't always practice what they preached. But the Vatican hasn't ever changed a doctrine. It has refined what has always been believed, giving more precise definitions, but it hasn't ever changed anything. To my knowledge, anyway. Their key doctrines of the present-day Catholic Church can all be found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which is one of the great things about Catholicism, to me! It shows such blessed continuity, right from the earliest days of Christianity that we have records for, up to now. Quote:
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By the way, I see from your profile that you live under the sea, but do you happen to be gurgling around the coasts of Southern California? It would be neat to meet this summer, if you live anywhere near. Quote:
Have you ever been to a church (or some other place) where you can just sense the peace and love, the experience of God's Spirit there in a special way? Kind of like when Moses approached the burning bush and God said, "Take off your sandals. The earth you are walking on is holy ground"? God could hear Moses anywhere, and since God is omnipresent, he was right next to Moses all his life. Yet he chose one particular place on the Earth to reveal his presence in a unique way, imparting a specific and powerful blessing. That place became particularly holy, in God's eyes, because of that manifestation. I think of Confession in that way. God can forgive anywhere, but he imparts forgiveness in a particularly sacred, blessed way during Confession. It can be a more complete way of receiving forgiveness, I think, because it involves hearing words of forgiveness with physical ears as well as receiving with spiritual ears. When you just pray in your head, "Lord, please forgive me," and you feel that he has forgiven you, you receive it with your spirit but you never physically hear it. When Christ came to Earth and forgave people, they heard his voice physically as well as spiritually, and Christ told his disciples to do the same, "whatever man's sins you retain shall be retained, and whatever man's sins you forgive shall be forgiven." Several other scriptures also show how he passed it on, and the Early Church practiced it. When Christ forgave with his physical voice as well as a spiritual voice to the soul, those he spoke to received in soul, spirit and body, the whole person all together receiving. That's the special blessing of it . And I assure you that my first Confession was the most emotional experience I've ever had after asking for God's forgiveness. Its power just hit me like a mallet. It's an Incarnational experience, part of our unity with Christ in his Incarnation. He came in flesh as well as spirit and soul, and when he gave forgiveness in the past, and when he gives forgiveness through his representative priests, we receive with physical ears as well as with our spiritual ears, so it comes to our flesh as well as to our spirits. We receive with all we are rather than only part, so it is a gift to the wholeness of our identity, not only part of it. And thus it takes a supernatural form beyond what we'd normally receive through praying in our spirits alone and receiving in our spirits alone. It's flesh to flesh, spirit to spirit and soul to soul all at once, and so it unites us with God's Incarnation. That's how I understand its blessing, anyway . It doesn't negate asking forgiveness wherever you are, but it provides a supernatural avenue through which Christ's forgiveness can pour in a more complete way. Besides, Christ recommended that we practice it, so it's got to be worthwhile . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-18-2008 at 05:21 AM. |
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06-18-2008, 05:19 AM | #754 |
Elf Lord
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Accidental double-post. Please ignore this thingemybopper.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-18-2008 at 05:21 AM. |
06-18-2008, 06:22 AM | #755 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Just a few short ones, because I have to start spending my time a few other matters and I think we've reached the point where we're going in circles anyway. This will my last entry here for now.
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A mutual cause is in many things likely, but not automatical. There are a number of possible hypotheses for the dispersal of flood-myths and the simularities and differences between them, but none of them must absolutely require a supernatural cause. Quote:
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It came up as merely a detail in the discussion, so I don't think that debate is going to take centerstage here. If it does, it should and will be moved to its own thread, but that will be without me since I have no desire right now to go deeper into it.
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06-18-2008, 08:09 AM | #756 | |
Elf Lord
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There's no reasonable way around a "prescribed economic system" with Acts 4 32-37. "They had all things common". It was one of the marks of Grace, and it's one extremely clear way to demonstrate that many folks who consider themselves "Christian" in modern times (including the Catholic Church0 are not as interested in following Biblical instructions as in picking which instructions suit them.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-18-2008, 12:18 PM | #757 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'll respond to your abortion comments in the Abortion Thread. Not that my response there is going to be at all long, but I don't want to bother anyone here. You don't need to respond to that response to your post if you don't want to, but I'd like it if you read them, anyway .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-18-2008 at 12:23 PM. |
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06-18-2008, 03:42 PM | #758 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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*blushes*. thank you I'm finding this thread very interesting....although I'm just a lurker right now b/c of time constraints...again...blame the kids
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06-18-2008, 11:53 PM | #759 | ||||||||
Kraken King
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Unfortunately, no.Think Eastern US, but I'm landlocked, which has me rather miserable at the moment. It would be neat to meet, though. I've a list of 'Mooters I'd like to meet, and you're definately on it. Quote:
I'll have to respond in full when I'm not so exhausted, maybe I'll be coherent then. Saturday maybe. Quote:
(I had to delete ALOT of smilies to make this pstable, btw)
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons Last edited by Nautipus : 06-18-2008 at 11:55 PM. |
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06-19-2008, 12:15 AM | #760 | |
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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