Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
For my benefit, please quote the "lies" in that article.

Yes, please.

Just a bit of background on John Pilger:
http://pilger.carlton.com/home/biography

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
For my benefit, please quote the "lies" in that article.

"the crime is all too evident"


"The prime minister is a war criminal and should be sent to the Hague"

"the case against Blair and Bush is BEYOND DOUBT."

"a deep and unconscious racism that involves evey aspect of Western policy towards IraQ"

"it is this racism that has cynically elevated SH from a petty local chieftain, albeit a brutal and ruthless one in the mold of many before him, to a figure demonized beyond reason"

"They were niggers and they still are"

The killing of---------would be in industrial quantities now were it not for the voices

I'll get back to this, gotta run.

"Just as the American invasion of Vietnam was fueled by racism, in which gooks could be murdered with impunity, so the current atrocity in Iraq is from the same mold"

"Our boys are denying water to the stricken people of Basra as well as to Umm Qasr, which they have controlled for a week."

"our propaganda and its unspoken racism has required an imperial distortion of intellect and morality."

"that greatest act of terrorism, the wilful atomic bombing of Japan."

"is it still true that only our lives are of value"

I don't have time to continue. I think you see I don't brelieve the bulk of this bull.

[Starr Polish]

To Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill, the Iraqis, like all Arabs, were "niggers'', against whom poison gas could be used. They were un-people; and they still are. The killing of some 80 villagers near Baghdad last Thursday, of children in markets, of the "chicks who get in the way'' would be in industrial quantities now were it not for the voices of the millions who filled London and other capitals, and the young people who walked out of their schools; they have saved countless lives.

Emphasis mine.

This angers me extremely. Pigeonholing Americans (and the British that support the war) as racist people who believe in genocide. This is HARDLY the case. Yes, there is racism in the US, I see it in my own classrooms everyday. BUT, there are also racists and xenophobes in the Middle East, New Zealand, Russia...everywhere. This doesn't mean the majority of the population is that way.

And about the school walkouts: For some reason I highly doubt that would make much of a difference. I have attended school walkouts, and they do not make a dent in authority's opinion.

Tell me these aren't lies.

Also, how can the case against Bush and Blair be BEYOND DOUBT? There is support for the war. And, anti war, pro war, neutral, whatever, it's all an opinion. Someone else is always going to doubt someone's opinion.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Lizra
The two are entwined. American people elect the officials who craft the foreign policy. I would be willing to bet you would be offended to have New Zealand drug through political mud, repeatedly. It's just common sense that you will upset some Americans. I wish you would realize that. We are human beings! Not debate drones!

Totally no offence meant (for it sure is threading lightly in every thread that deals with America these days) but I think it's wrong to judge the foreign policy and the people of a nation as the same. For though it may be the people who elect officials this doesn't mean that the policies those officials maintain reflect the feelings of the population 100%. The people can choose to support that policy but they don't necesarily identify with it. I think it's completely possible to be against a foreign policy but NOT against the people of that nation. Same as I myself have not always been pleased with the foreign policy of my own country but I do not hate or even dislike Belgium for it. Nor will I consider any one who gives critique on it anti-belgian.

[Hasty Ent]

Brava, Eärniel!

My sentiments, exactly. I was born in the United States, and find absolutely nothing in any of BoPs posts that I would consider anti-American.

I form my opinions of people as I get to know them, not based on what their politicians are doing (or not doing).

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lizra
We are human beings! Not debate drones!

Im a debate drone.

*computer noises*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
For the record: I don't think America is evil. Not at all. Cheney (and unilaterialism in general) on the other hand... Check out the link in my signature sometime.

What's wrong with unilatarilist? I vote for my representatives to represent ME - as I have said many many times.

I'd really like to see where the US officer actually killed a civilian and said "Sorry, buyt the chick got in the way."

That article was completely a distorted view of history and very simplistic. It's written with no regard to causes for our actions. That article was complete American hatred nonsense. And I agree with Lizra - most of it is made up of lies and distorted facts.

The north overran South Vietnam several years after we left - the people no live in poverty. The unemployment rate in Vietnam is now 25%. Here is a very short history of vietnam.

France occupied all of Vietnam by 1884. Independence was declared after World War II, but the French continued to rule until 1954 when they were defeated by Communist forces under Ho Chi MINH, who took control of the north. US economic and military aid to South Vietnam grew through the 1960s in an attempt to bolster the government, but US armed forces were withdrawn following a cease-fire agreement in 1973. Two years later North Vietnamese forces overran the south. Economic reconstruction of the reunited country has proven difficult as aging Communist Party leaders have only grudgingly initiated reforms necessary for a free market.

Yeah - it doesn't go into detail on the war - but it also doesn't just mention how the Vietcong tied radio control bombs to children and used them as walking bombs against our troops. But hey - I guess some of you think that was admirable becuase they were doing it against America.

In the Twentieth Century we gave up more land than we've taken over. What countries have we taken over in the last 50 years? Do we support those who support OUR interests? Of course we do. What country doesn't support the countries who support them.

As for the looting and lawlessness in the streets of Baghdad- this was the first day. I don't think ANYONE woke up today and thought they'd be seeing the people in Baghdad cheering or the looting. Look at what happens repeatedly in "anti-globalization" rallies and so called "peace" rallies. We will be working on the rebuilding of Iraq and I really don't expect various ones of you to admit that we actually did a good job. You'll concentrate on the few who speak out against the US - even if millions around them are living a much better life and are happy and cheering. You'll work hard to find the article that says an American business has been granted a rebuilding contract or a suicide bomber to say - "see - you failed and it was all about money"

70+% of Americans support this war and the action OUR government has taken. Yes - sorry to tell you guys - but the United States government answers to only ONE constiuency and that is the AMERICAN people. I don't see where the foreign policy of this government is that different from what AMERICANS want. We supported this war - so you disagree with the majority of Americans.

I am proud of what we did today. I feel sorry for the many civilians - but thousands die every year in torture from Hussein. In the long run this can be the start of more peace in the Middle East and the end of torture and death in Iraq. I'm sure many of you would much rather have the US fail - otherwise - what else will you have to believe in. You WANT to believe the US does nothing right. I support my governments foreign policy at the moment. Have I always? No, of course not. For one thing - this is what we should have done in 1991. But it is ONLY Americans who can change it. Sorry - but the world has NO voice in our government. Deal with YOUR governments. You did NOT elect ours and we did NOT elect yours.

Bringing democracy to Iraq is not going to be easy - but I feel we can do it. If any country can bring democracy to a country we can. It's not the first time we've done it.

By the way - I want to know how many of you who say that that one sided piece of crap BoP posted is the 'true" history of the US - has actually bothered to study US history. Or is it mostly your perceptions or the fact that that is just the only propaganda that you believe in. Because that is propaganda - that is NOT history, except as a distorted, one-sided view. If you truly want to know about American history - then I suggest you pick up a book and read it and not one called "The Evils of America".

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
Brava, Eärniel!

My sentiments, exactly. I was born in the United States, and find absolutely nothing in any of BoPs posts that I would consider anti-American.

Just because you were born in America - doesn't mean you know jack about history.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Just because you were born in America - doesn't mean you know jack about history.

I never claimed to know 'jack' about history. I was merely responding, as someone who was born in America and spent most of her 40 years here, that I do not find BoPs posts to be anti-American.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
I never claimed to know 'jack' about history. I was merely responding, as someone who was born in America and spent most of her 40 years here, that I do not find BoPs posts to be anti-American.

The article itself is anti-American.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
I never claimed to know 'jack' about history. I was merely responding, as someone who was born in America and spent most of her 40 years here, that I do not find BoPs posts to be anti-American.

As SGH said - the article was anti-American. It was nothing more than anti-American propaganda. Sorry - but history is FAR MORE complicated than that article.

Also - if you did a search on "John Pilger" - you'd see the one sided reporting of him. He's not a reporter - he's a pervayer of his own onesided propaganda.

Has the US done everything right in it's history? NO , but neither has any other country. I'll say one thing - I'd rather live in a world with the US who brought about the defeat of Hitler, Empirial Japan and Soviet Communism. Yes - I know many of you would disagree with the US role in these respects - but where would Europe and the world be if the US did NOT get into World War II or draw a line in the sand against the Soviet Union? I didn't see Europe lift it's fingers when the Soviet Union tried to wall off Berlin - it took the US to prevent them from succeeding.

Today - without the US - Europe and the world would either look like Nazi Germany or be looking like North Korea, Cuba or China.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Anti-American? Wow. I don't see anything in that article that expressly says "I hate Americans." And resorting to personal attacks? Tsk, tsk.

Gwaimir: That was a cheap comment about the tv shows. I said I liked a lot more than that about America than that.

For the record: I don't think America is evil. Not at all. Cheney (and unilaterialism in general) on the other hand... Check out the link in my signature sometime.

Expressly, no. But you see, just because we're Americans doesn't mean we are wholly and completely stupid. Despite the opinion of the majority of the world.

Right, you also talked to a few Americans. What else?

P. S.: I did.

And I agree with what JD and Lizra said. We the people have chosen them to represent us, and a large majority of us support them. If you hate them, you hate us.

P. S. Just curious: what is your American friend's stance on the war?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
P. S. Just curious: what is your American friend's stance on the war?

You seriously don't have to ask - do you? Or was that just a rhetorical question?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Now, now, that's not fair at all. I associate with people who are against America the War (and America; two of my top ten favorite Mooters are two who very well fit my definition of anti-American). She could easily be friends with someone who is pro-war.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

While I am definitely less than fond of anti-Americans, I am also against acting as tho' they are, to reverse Lizra's statement "debate drones, not people". I also believe homosexuality and extramarital sex to be wrong, but as I have said countless times (and never seem to have been believed), this does NOT mean I deem those who practice such things to be any less human.

[BeardofPants]

Thank you, Hasty Ent.

I still fail to see how a critique of US Foreign Policy is anti-American.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
P. S. Just curious: what is your American friend's stance on the war?

One is for, one is against. The one against is so peed off that she's getting NZ citizenship.

Gwaimir: Not only do I have real life American friends, but there are many here that I would consider friends as well: A-E, Rian, Lizra, you, Olsonm, Cirdan, etc. I correspond with people from America outside of entmoot as well. As some of you know: I WAS planning to visit, but then several things fell through: money, a "friend" turned out not to be so nice (stranded another friend of mine in the middle of Utah), my brother going to jail. I have a lot of interest in visiting, and hopefully living there some day. My field of study means that the best place to be is America. I hope someday to go to Berkeley... partly because of the anthropology dept, and partly because San Francisco sounds so exciting! I also have an interest in the early migration patterns of hominids through the American region, and an ongoing interest in early archaeological sites in both America, and Meso-America. I like some tv shows, as I believe you have mentioned, and while I haven't foraged directly into US history, it is something I'd like to pick up sometime, when I have time. I'm currently studying GIS (Geographic Information Systems), the evolution of which took place primarily in America during the late 1960s.

I'm glad to a certain extent that there is still a military prescence in Afghanistan, and I hope that that region will quieten down soon. I'm glad that Saddam appears, for all intents and purposes, to have been toppled. Hopefully, the World (as in multilateral) will be able to bring peace, and calm into this region. I have never stood for what Saddam has done to his people, BUT, I am against a unilateral move by the US to dictate how the middle east is run. I would liked to have seen the UN inspectors get more time, and had that failed, I would have like to have seen the UN and the US moving against Iraq together. But, in saying that, I'm glad that Saddam has fallen.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I am not a racist. I come from a pretty racist and biggoted family (not so much my parents, but my grandfather), and I left home to get AWAY from that. I will not tolerate racism, and that includes against Americans (part of the reason I picked up archaeology, was because of my interest in the indigenous peoples of NZ, and other areas of the pacific. I also did Taha Maori for two years during intermediate school, so that I could learn more about Maori culture.) I fail to see the merit in judging an entire nation of people by the idiocy, IMO, of the president, or his administration. I'll say it again: I don't think I'm anti-American, and I don't think what I posted was anti-American. I'm sorry that there are some who do, because it means that I have failed to communicate the fact that I'm really not. It really does upset me to think that people would think that I hate Americans. I do not.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
While I am definitely less than fond of anti-Americans, I am also against acting as tho' they are, to reverse Lizra's statement "debate drones, not people". I also believe homosexuality and extramarital sex to be wrong, but as I have said countless times (and never seem to have been believed), this does NOT mean I deem those who practice such things to be any less human.

And that, my friend, is how I would view my thoughts on American Foreign Policy. I don't like it, but I don't judge an entire nation for it. I would have thought you of all people would understand at least some of my rationale.

[Lizra]

Well, thank you for that informative post BoP. I really like it when people "get real" like that. Now I think I can "relate" to you better.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Lizra
Well, thank you for that informative post BoP. I really like it when people "get real" like that. Now I think I can "relate" to you better.

Thanks. And I think I did okay on my test as well. Your "charm" vibes must have worked!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hey, I was defending you!

I think I said that, as the majority of Americans support the actions taken by the government, then really by saying that the administration is idiotic, you are basically saying the same thing about 70% of Americans.

Told ya, JD!

Thanks much for that post, BoP. It has really helped me to learn more about you. After reading that, I feel that I was wrong in labelling you anti-American (at least intentionally so), and would like to extend my apology for doing so.