12-01-2004, 03:24 AM | #741 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Ri, do you think a hindu or buddhist could enter heaven if they followed their own religion and have never had the chance to know Christ, or do you think it is just Christians.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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12-01-2004, 07:31 AM | #742 |
Elven Warrior
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I'm pretty sure Christianity works under the 'ignorance is no excuse' rule, and if someone has never heard of Christ, they will not gain access into heaven.
I'm an atheist, and I really don't feel like debating my beliefs, but I'll just say that I find it hard to accept a belief system that, if correct, means people like Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi and the Buddha are burning in hell right now. Of course thats not my main reason for my beliefs, but I figured I'd just leave it at that.
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And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die. |
12-01-2004, 07:37 AM | #743 | |||
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You can believe it's right to be a kind and decent person for non-religious reasons for example.
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12-01-2004, 10:52 AM | #744 |
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As I've said, I'm not a Christian so I don't speak on anyone's behalf, but I feel compelled to make a small correction.
Christians are divided on the topic of redemption (who gets into heaven). Baptists believe in particular redemption, for instance, while Methodists believe in universal redemption. It isn't fair to lump them all into one group regarding this. Since Rian is a Methodist, it would be incorrect to assume that she thinks Gandhi is burning in Hell. They believe Jesus brought salvation for everyone and that you're supposed to live according to The Bible. They don't actually connect them together as cause and effect, as has already been pointed out to me. |
12-01-2004, 01:03 PM | #745 |
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Oy! For the third time, I'm not a Methodist! That was just the first church I attended. Maybe I'll go back and edit that post and make it more clear! I suppose if I had to check a box, I would consider myself an evangelical Christian, and I go to a non-denominational church. And that's kinda why I made this thread a personal one - why YOU believe what YOU believe.
Nurvi - I'm not saying that my statement about the atheist's beliefs is ALL that's in his/her life. I AM saying, however, that it is a logically necessary deduction from the atheist's beliefs. Teddi - (TD) - Check back a few posts, I think I answered that one pretty thoroughly - maybe you missed it ... I'll dig up the post number.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-01-2004, 01:08 PM | #746 | |
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I agree with you - I couldn't love a God that booted people out of heaven on technicalities or unfairly. And the God that's described in the Bible does NOT do this. Read the first section of the book of Romans, and the Gospel of John, for my references (since Christianity is a worldview that references documents, one must give references when making a claim about its worldview beliefs).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-01-2004 at 01:10 PM. |
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12-01-2004, 01:21 PM | #747 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-01-2004 at 01:22 PM. |
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12-01-2004, 02:04 PM | #748 | |||||
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Would you please re-read my post #725 - I think it explains this a bit, but I'll write just a bit here, too. Lief, for you, check out Matthew 2:2 But seriously, I think the missionary example (as opposed to the Hindu one) illustrates this idea - what else could it have come from? But again, I fall back on my supporting info of God's clearly documented love and justness, and Romans chpt. 1, of course! and things like Jer. 32:27. Now I'm not answering any more of your questions, you impertinent whippersnapper , until you do the homework in the Theology thread! *gets back into her rocking chair with her crochet* Lemmi and Teddi - I think there's lots of things going on here - justice, love, free will - but I think the answer can be found in the heart of God, as I said in that post #725. It's just like we interpret actions of people on earth by what we know of their heart - if I grabbed something from my son and threw it away from him, his first guess would hopefully be that I saw something dangerous about it and was saving him from harm; if a bully did this, his guess would be that the bully was being mean - do you understand what I'm saying? So again, what I see of God's heart, from many, MANY years of knowing Him and searching the Bible and praying, is that He loves ALL of mankind and desires ALL to be reconciled to Him and has done everything possible for this to happen (Ref. 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16). Yet desiring is different from forcing, and love cannot be forced, and love is what He desires - He will not force love from us - it is our choice. Now people have asked, "well, if God intended to forgive everyone anyway, then why did Jesus have to die? It seems useless and cruel." A very good question - but they forget the holiness and justness of God, which we see echoed in our souls (a recent example is Elfhelm's anger and concern over the bombing of civilians - because Elfhelm has a strong sense of what is right and wrong, and because he cares about people getting hurt, he is angry about the bombing. If he didn't give a rip about people or justice, he wouldn't care!) So that's why Jesus had to die - in Milton's Paradise Lost, he explains it very well - either people had to die because of sin, or justice itself would be dead. But God loves us and doesn't desire our death - but it is wrong to pass over sin - what is to be done? I like how Milton words it - this is God speaking (in the first sentence, "he" refers to sinful mankind): Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-01-2004 at 02:07 PM. |
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12-01-2004, 02:20 PM | #749 |
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(con't)
So the point here is that Jesus's sacrifice made the way for mankind to be reconciled to a perfectly just and holy and loving God. And I really don't know much else to say on this question, except what I've said before - God desires all to come to Him, God has made a way for all to come to Him, God says that NO ONE has an excuse to NOT come to Him because there is sufficient info in creation and our conscience to decide to seek Him, and that EVERYONE that seeks Him with all their hearts WILL find Him. It does NOT say that everyone that can brainlessly recite John 3:16 will find Him; it says that those who SEEK Him will find Him. And that is why I think that a person can not know any Christian terms, or even info about that the Son of God was born into humanity in Bethlehem, to be saved. This thread is about why we hold our beliefs - and this is my belief, and I think I can support it scripturally. Yet we as Christians are called to share the gospel with others, and we have NO right to say, "Well, God can just do it on His own". God chooses to work THRU us, and ANY time truth is shared, it will be good for the hearer, so we need to keep sharing the truth. I am not the final authority on truth; I only have my thoughts, but I have thought long and carefully. I share these thoughts with you guys with a great deal of humility and trepidation; and God help me and you if I'm wrong in ANY area that I've shared here. Yet I think pat and un-thought-out answers and mindless reciting of Scripture is wrong and insulting to both God and the hearers, so I dare to share these things with you, and ask you guys to really think them out in your hearts and minds. And I ask one more thing, a great favor - if you have ANY regard for me, would you think these things thru with a truth-seeking heart? God is truth; if you truly and openly seek truth with all your heart, it is my opinion that you will find Him. God bless you all - I know He longs to do this, and I pray you will receive it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-01-2004, 02:36 PM | #750 | |||
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So again, the context was in terms of my perception of the world. It seems as if it's OK to bomb civilians, so I think they got Jesus all wrong. I mentioned it only because you asked what I believe. And I really think we enter a zone here where we could accidentally hurt feelings. On an individual basis, I don't think anyone HERE thinks it is OK to bomb civilians. But it doesn't seem like anyone cares to insure that the engagement is carried out according to these principles. Here's one of the best things I've seen on the subject: Quote:
I think if a religion is true, it should actually WORK. Over the last two thousand years, it hasn't worked yet. So I think the religion is at fault. I'm definitely not tossing out Jesus, just the religions that don't seem to represent him right. |
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12-01-2004, 02:39 PM | #751 | ||
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Sometimes you have to defend yourself, I agree. But to do so and back yourself up with the Bible seems wrong to me. If you have to defend yourself, do it. But why make it out that you're riteous in doing so? No one is riteous in a fight or a war. You just do what you have to do.
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12-01-2004, 02:41 PM | #752 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I'd like to bring up a quick new angle here, then I have to go for a bit and might not be able to get back on until tomorrow.
Someone asked me a long time ago about what areas I doubt, or have trouble with, in the Christian worldview. I think this is a great question, and one worth answering, if one is brave and honest enough to do so, so I will be bold enough to open my heart and share with you guys, because again, I am a truth-seeker - I'm not interested in winning any debate or argument, only in seeking truth and loving others and loving God. I chose the username "Rian" because I thought it sounded pretty, and it was short . I don't think Rian did the right thing leaving Tuor to the elves (and I almost didn't pick that name because of this), but I can understand why she did it, because of her great grief over Huor. I like this description of her, which can be found in Unfinished Tales: "By hard fate was she born into such days, for she was gentle of heart and loved neither hunting nor war." I feel like that description fits me, and that's where I have some trouble with the Bible. I look at the Old Testament, and frankly, I see some verses on fighting that are hair-raising. Yet the more I consider it and research it, the more I come to understand it, altho I don't like it. Yet liking or not liking don't affect if something is true/right or not. Life is hard, and painful, and so is the truth, sometimes, IMO. And another aspect about this - if someone is completely happy with their worldview and has absolutely no doubts about it, I would seriously wonder about their mental state, or I would conclude that they haven't put much thought into it. And I think the fact that there are some areas in the Christian wv (I'll abbreviate "worldview" as wv now, OK?) that don't sit completely right with me is really just an indication that I didn't make the whole thing up! It has the feel, as it were, of reality, as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky made-up philosophy. Do you see what I mean? So I read verses about fighting and killing in the OT (which, btw, were NOT all condoned by God!) and wonder why it had to be this way. Yet I also see people confusing killing with ancient weapons with killing cruelly, as if the Israelites had a sword in one hand and a lethal injection syringe in another, and chose to use the sword, and use it in a way that was cruel, to kill a person. People seem to think that just because people had what we would consider barbaric weapons, that necessarily this indicated that people were cruel. I think this is an entirely invalid conclusion, and this should be obvious with a little thought. Also people think that the people that were killed by the command of God were these totally innocent, nice people. This is inaccurate - many were Baal worshippers, and Moloch worshippers (remember that nice dude, Nurvi, from the other thread?! ), that had "nice" little worship practices such as burning infants alive . I think societies as a whole have good points, and bad ones. And I think that our society has mistaken apathetic for good. IOW, we are mostly "good", IMO, in our highly civilized countries, because we are well-fed. It's easy to be "good" when life is relatively easy. And I think that one thing the ancient Hebrews had was a strong sense of good, and the courage to do something about it. Now I think they definitely were wrong at times (and so did God, btw), yet I think we're missing something here - we sit on our overweight tushies and watch tv and complain about the world - yet how many of us get up and do something? Anyway, this is not near as much as I wanted to explain, but I wanted to at least start the topic. I do NOT like the killing I see in the OT, yet - I'm not afraid to dive in and look at it seriously, and take it to God and ask "why?" Yet I think it's important HOW we ask "Why"? Some people ask it, but don't want to know - they just want an excuse to defy and argue. And some ask who really want to know. I hope we can all be like that. Sorry for the very vague and rambling post, but I hope it starts some good discussion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-01-2004, 02:48 PM | #753 | ||
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Boy do I ever remember that Moloch guy! *twitch*
You bring up a good point Ri. (What good is a short name if there's an impossible accent on the "i"? ) War is a reality for us flawed, passionate, and sometimes misguided human beings. It's easy for me to live in peace, because I have a home, food, shelter, warmth, and clean water. My rights are respected, and I have freedom of speech. I have no reason to fight. In fact, pretty much everyone in "western" society doesn't have a reason to fight. But then there's another level of complexity. When governments and nations are involved, there's an aspect to the situation that is outside the control of any one person or small group of people. Events set in motion can have uncontrollable or unforseen consequences.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-01-2004, 02:53 PM | #754 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Elfhelm and Nurvi posted while I was typing -
Yes, Elfhelm, I definitely saw that you used "seem", yet couldn't you have said "SOME American Christians seem to think it's OK to bomb civilians", to be more accurate? Or said what you said : "On an individual basis, I don't think anyone HERE thinks it is OK to bomb civilians." along with the original statement? Y'know, I probably should have taken that concern to you in a PM instead of a public post. I'm sorry - I was just over-sensitive from the other thread. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt since you used "seem". I'm sorry - would you please forgive me? ANd thanks for sharing those rules - those are really good! I don't have time to comment on the rest of the post, or Nurvi's, either - see you guys later! And I'm sorry for being a twit sometimes but at least I'm a twit that cares about you guys! Please bear with me and forgive me...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-01-2004, 02:55 PM | #755 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BYE!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-01-2004, 03:36 PM | #756 | ||
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On to that other thing... those "hard parts" of the OT. Here's an interesting quote from religioustolerance.org: Quote:
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12-01-2004, 03:47 PM | #757 | |||
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Who said you were a twit?! I bet no one did... why would you call yourself that?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-01-2004, 04:37 PM | #758 |
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It's making me chuckle so I hope nobody minds if I post off topic just this once...
Nurv, your language uses 0228, 0229, and 0246. Surely a Swede is comfortable with the [Alt] key. So all you have to remember is RÃ*an uses 0237. |
12-01-2004, 06:13 PM | #759 | ||||
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(and thank you for the "some" and the smilie ) I like to ponder things, and I only have 30 minutes before I have to pick up the kiddos, so I won't address this topic any further today, as I'm going to be busy all evening, too. Darn RL!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-01-2004, 06:18 PM | #760 | ||
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Yes, I instantly saw thru your devious plot to save copy-and-paste time when you started calling me "Ri" (smart plot!) (irritating accent mark!) (but it looks so pretty!) (why do you think I have all those accented letters in my siggy? My old computer didn't work with the alt-number thingy to get accented letters!) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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