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#741 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#742 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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The fact that people disagree about whether murder does not mean the commandment does not have a correct and absolute interpretation. To say that the fact that people disagree about morality means there is no absolute morality is blatantly absurd. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#743 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#744 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#745 | |||||||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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but, we can certainly quantify things as "absolute for all intents and purposes" if just about everyone agrees with them conversely, if a topic is a matter of great debate (i.e. any religion out there), it is quite a leap of faith to call it absolute... you can if you want, but expect many people to disagree with you ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#746 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#747 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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What, IR, is a concept? What is appropriate?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#748 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Quote:
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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#749 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#750 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#751 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
what are yours?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#752 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Well just the obvious for starters: whats the nature of your being? Is their a plan? How are we relevant if at all? Do we have a clue about over all spirituality or are we just spitting in the wind? Is evolution part of nature...
Of course the first thing youll need to ask is Can we even understand/comprehend answers to these questions as human beings? Will our head explode if you give us the key to the mind of god?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#753 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Your relativism is based upon assumptions about spiritual reality being non-existent. If you are right about this, then your conclusion is valid, that "spiritual reality" is relative and depends upon people. However, if spiritual reality does exist independent of people, just as the world is (you accept mathematics and things that are naturally part of the universe as absolute), then relativism begins to unfold. You can still claim that whether or not there is a spiritual reality, people have differing views, and you'd be right on that. That is why God has chosen to interact with people, that they may enter into relationships with him and be aware of the truth that otherwise would be concealed behind the shades that often are unaided human understanding.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-19-2006 at 05:30 PM. |
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#754 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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in a nutshell this means that there simply isn't good enough evidence out there (the observable, repeatable kind) for this "spiritual reality" you speak of... i'm not saying it doesn't exist... just that any claim that it does is a huge leap of faith i'm not "guessing" anything, rather i am withholding any conclusions about "absolutes" unless and until some better evidence comes along
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#755 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
Lack of evidence was one of the things that used to nag my Dad, before he became a Christian. Finally though, he got rational and said to himself, "If this is God we're talking about, then he can provide the evidence." So Dad prayed to God, "if you send me an angel, I will believe in you." Then he thought about it again and realized, what if some event occurs in the future that may or may not have been an angel? So he went a step further, saying, "and I will believe if the angel shows up within 24 hours." God answered his prayer through a piano repair man who came to the house that day. Dad was forced to hold up the piano lid for him while he worked on the inside, and he talked to Dad about nothing but Christianity, God and salvation. Dad thought about the day at its end, and he realized how his prayer had been answered. Then he became a Christian. So God can and does provide evidence for those who need it and who have an open heart to receive him. Also, to me, a claim that spiritual reality exists even if the claimant has no evidence is less of a leap of faith than the claim that it doesn't exist. The claim that it doesn't exist means that all that we see around us comes from random chance. There can be no way of knowing it's random chance, but all that exists in its sophistication, beauty and wonder would have to all be random and unplanned. To me, that seems . . . far fetched. Anyway, there are various levels of evidence I could get into about Christianity. The main ones I focus on have nothing to do with the universe as a whole. That's just something that slams me in the face rather frequently, the admiration of its glory and beauty. It just seems so unlikely on a personal, instinctive level that it wasn't created by a Creator. But this is not one of the evidences I usually point to, regarding Christianity's accuracy. There are others that are much less qualitative. I only mention the universe because if I were to form a position based on blind faith regarding whether there is a God or not, taking the spectacular wonder of nature into account, I would find it easier to believe in a spiritual reality than to not believe in it. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#756 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#757 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
![]() i respect you father's experience, but one could easily call it coincidence... it is your father who made it a spiritual experience, because that is how he wanted to interpret it... an interpretation relative to his viewpoint i don't litter my posts with IMOs either... it's a given that anything i post, and anything you post is purely our own opinions... i believe that there are no absolute human concepts until proven otherwise... you do not... both are opinions and it's up to each and every reader here to make their own determination i don't think your opinion is necessarily invalid... it is just lacking objective evidence i did not acknowledge the existance of physical absolutes either, all i said was that some things can be considered absolute as far as humans are concerned... we do not know everything about "reality", but some physical things are extremely consistant, so calling them absolute is fine 'till proven otherwise
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#758 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Quote:
maybe being stuck before a computer screen for all eternity with an internet connection that could only connect to christian sites ![]() ![]()
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#759 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#760 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Quote:
and, Well just the obvious for starters: whats the nature of your being? Is their a plan? How are we relevant if at all? Do we have a clue about over all spirituality or are we just spitting in the wind? Is evolution part of nature... Of course the first thing youll need to ask is Can we even understand/comprehend answers to these questions as human beings? Will our head explode if you give us the key to the mind of god?" Christianity states that man is an amphibian of matter and spirit, regarding the former from the animal side and material; the latter from the image of God, the Creator. Is there a plan? Yes per Christianity. The disruption of the material and spiritual by the human disobedience is beyond human capability of repair. God has a plan to repair it which is in effect. It involved the revelation of the nature of God and man, the provision for restoration, the Incarnation (from birth to Resurrection) in Jesus, and the sending of the Holy Spirit to bring those seeking it into the Divine Life of the Trinity. You don't have to wait for death to enter LIFE, you can do that now, by faith! We are relevant because God has chosen to make us, endow us with free will, and make a way for us to recover that which was lost by our election of self over God. We have more than a clue about spirituality. We have the redemption of the world by a loving God who has made His way known to us by becoming one of us and, by obedience, mending the rift between us. Evolution is a part of nature. But I am not sure what you meant by that inclusion. Can we understand or comprehend as humans? Yes. We participate in Reason. Above that we have the direct involvement of God to meet our abilities in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, God Incarnate. You can't get any more on our level than that. The key to the mind of God is Jesus, the logos, made to share in our human nature to redeem it and restore us to God. And I agree, it is a mind-blowing reality!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-20-2006 at 12:10 PM. |
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