Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

No, Nurvi, you got that mixed up I grew up attending a Methodist church, which my parents went to because that's what "good" people did (they were NOT Christians at the time, but they had grown up attending church). That church was as dead as a doornail spiritually, and there was definitely hypocrisy there, too, altho I was too young to see a lot of it. After I became a Christian, I was drawn to non-denominational churches, and in my experience, they are the ones, typically, that have a greater chance of having leaders that are full of the love and life of Christ.

OK - on to TD's questions!

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

It's kind of ironic (maybe not ironic, maybe just interesting) that RÃ*an was drawn to the Methodist church she attends because they weren't hypocritical, and Elemmire was put off a Methodist church she attended because they were hypocritical (if that's what you're saying Ellie).

Just goes to show no denomination or group in any religion is uniform.

[/random observation]

That was only half of it.

What can I say, the minister's daughter was in my grade, and a real... um... primadonna... I'd use other words but I'm not yet sure what sort of language is allowed here...

But beyond that, I was simply unable to believe in much of it at all anymore.

Though some interpretations I like much more than others...

Sorry, Ri... please continue.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Do you believe you only have to ask God for forgivness once or many times?

I think there are two things about forgiveness that are pertinent to your question.

The first looks like you're asking about when a person becomes a Christian. I've explained a coupla times how I think that works, and that the basics are as follows:

• the realization and acknowledgement that I have sinned (which just means that at least one time in my life, I have not lived up to God's perfect and beautiful standard),
  
• that because of this I'm rightly separated from a perfect and holy God and cannot bridge this gap myself,
  
• that Jesus the perfect Son of God voluntarily took the penalty of my sin on Himself when He died on the cross,
  
• that I need God's forgiveness and this is available to me thru what Jesus did,
  
• that I willingly take Him as rightful and loving Lord of my life (and this is why the daily life of a Christian is different from before they choose to become a Christian - to find out what our loving Lord wants for and in our lives, we must seek Him in prayer and His Word, the Bible).

SO - in the one sense, the most important sense, you need to ask God for forgiveness once and only once - at the time of your decision to become a Christian. And when the above steps (or something like them) are taken, God says that something so profound happens - that we are actually "born again" - hence the common term "born-again Christians". Jesus taught in the book of John that in order to have eternal life, one must be born twice : once from their mother, and once spiritually. And upon this second birth, we are actually a new creation in Christ! He speaks of this as dying to your old life and being born into the eternal one. And all I can say is that I have found that to be blessedly true and that really, nothing else quite describes it so well - I KNEW something had changed - radically, fundamentally and permanently - in my life when I became a Christian. Not that I became perfect by any means! but ... but ... I hardly know how to express it by typing words! - I guess one thing was that now I was being changed from the inside-OUT, or from the heart to the outside, instead of just trying to change my outward behavior.

And this is also where that theme of "substitution" that I talked about earlier is actually realized - Jesus is our substitution - He took our place on death row and took our penalty upon Himself. And the Bible uses the picture of a "covering" - when God looks at Christians, He doesn't see our imperfections, but rather the righteousness of Jesus, because our sins are "covered" and obliterated by His blood that was shed for us.

The second angle of this is that the Bible says that after we become Christians, we need to confess our sins daily to God, so He can cleanse us and help us. Now this is a different thing from the salvation "confessing" described above - it's a daily help for us in real life. Now if I lied and immediately had a heart attack and died, I would still be saved, even tho I didn't confess that particular sin to God, because at the moment of my salvation, ALL of my sins - past, present and future - were covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. But I am better off obeying God's loving instructions to me, and confessing my daily sins to Him, because thru this, He works his healing in me

Does that make sense? Do you see the difference?

Another question to add. Do you believe someone can repent in hell and if so will they then go to heaven?

The short answer is that I don't see any type of teaching showing that this is a possibility. The more important longer answer, but which I think shows the truth more accurately, is that God is totally loving and totally just, and I see this all thru the Bible and in my own life, and it is IMPOSSIBLE, IMO, that anyone who is in Hell was not given every possible chance to choose otherwise. Note the word "possible" - as I said before, God has done everything possible to reconcile people to Him. But the final choice, IMO, rests with the people themselves. And it is not unreasonable to assume that a God who is omniscient knows when there is NO possible chance of a person changing. And I think this is because the millions upon millions of small decisions are making "soul marks" on us, and it comes to a point where when enough have accumulated, the direction of our soul is set, and it indeed comes to the place where we cannot change, because of our previous free-will choices. Kind of like a tree - it's easy to push a sapling, harder to push a young tree, impossible to permanantly make a change in the direction of a mature oak. Yet the direction of that mighty oak is set by how it was directed earlier in its life. And we, as humans, have the ability to set our own direction. A sobering thought ...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

SO - in the one sense, the most important sense, you need to ask God for forgiveness once and only once - at the time of your decision to become a Christian.

I agree. Do you think you should ask for forgivness daily even tho your sins, past, present and future have been forgiven?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i guess this is the crux of where i disagree... i do suppose that every person given complete knowledge of their choices will come to the desire "to be healed" as you put it... why not allow further chance at salvation after death? what has god got to lose?

see my answer to TD above.

another point by example... a kind and devoute buddist lives his entire life in best accordance with the teachings of Siddartha Gautama... who, in the classic sense is not a "deity" but a philosopher/ruler who lived around 500 B.C.... and whose teachings of compassion and spirituality are not terribly dissimilar to the basic tenants of christianity... irregardless of how this individual lived his life, as i understand it, this person would go to hell because he never acknowledged the "christian god"... to me this says that the "christian god" isn't really concerned at all about what type of person you are, but about whether or not you choose to worship him... i cannot accept a god with this kind of attitude

brownie, I don't think salvation only works when you say the right words. And I think this is illustrated very well by the fact that God Himself says Abraham was saved by His faith ... yet Abraham never knew Jesus. We are saved by faith, THROUGH what Jesus did for us on the cross, IF we will accept this. Yet Abraham didn't have a New Testament ...

Brownie, what I look at in matters like this is the heart of God as expressed in the Bible and as experienced in my life. What I see is a God who HATES lip service because He LOVES people and wants their hearts. Altho some Christians might disagree with me, I think it is entirely possible that the buddhist in your example would go to heaven - but NOT by his works; ONLY by his faith in God. However, works come OUT of faith, too - yet only God can tell whether works are just for show or out of a right heart. The Bible tells over and over of a God that is just and holy and loving; I cannot imagine a God throwing someone out of heaven on a "technicality" if in their heart they are seeking God, yet don't know His name. Yet this is no reason to stop sharing Christianity; even if a person is saved thru their faith, knowing the truths of Christianity (and the wonderfully practical helps in the Bible!) will enrich his/her life.

To sum up - I believe, and the Bible teaches:

• that God is perfectly just and holy and all-knowing;
• that God is love - think of it! NOT only that God is loving, but that He is the very embodiment of perfect love.
• that to everyone that seeks Him with all their heart, He will make Himself known; He desires that everyone be saved;
• that creation and morality are witnesses of God to every person;
• that NO ONE will have a valid excuse for not being in Heaven.

THIS is the God that is described in the Bible, and the God I know and love. And that wants to know and love YOU, brownie, and everyone else here.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Do you think you should ask for forgivness daily even tho your sins, past, present and future have been forgiven?

Yes, in the way and for the reasons I described above - maybe you didn't finish my post

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

I hope it's OK for me to interject something here, being an apostate Catholic. The CC has stated that Gandhi was redeemed. Some people, like Mel Gibson, have opposed that statement. Several Popes have visited Gandhi's grave. They make speeches saying things like:

Well, sadly I believe that the RCC in general is pretty apostate, altho many individual Catholics aren't, so I'm not surprised at what the RCC says I think they have fallen, as a leadership and a group, from serving and loving God to serving forms.

I think Gandhi might have been saved (see my post to brownie above), but it is presumptuous for them to say that he was, for God alone is the judge of this.

[Rían]

placeholder ....

Originally Posted by Lief

How much can one know about God that is learned only from heeding these two sources? Many have seen the mountains, the forests, the sky, the sun, and they have definitely believed that spiritual reality can be seen through them- but they have concluded that there are many gods. Others have looked at conscience as a witness and concluded, "whatever feels all right to your conscience is all right, and whatever doesn't is not all right. Everything is based on conscience." These kinds of fallicies occur when people listen to the two witnesses and observe spiritual truth in them.

I suppose people form heresies right from the clearly expressed words of the Bible also, simply because of flawed human nature. I'm still curious though, how good the discernment can be that is gained without prior knowledge of Christianity. Can you offer me any examples though of non-Christians who have been led to wonderful correct conclusions about God because of looking at nature?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

my point exactly on why i just can't jive with christianity (at least in some forms)

i think that if you live by all the ways that one would consider "good" (i.e. golden rule, etc.)... for all intents and purposes, you are a good person

and, on the flipside, if your a generally "bad" person, but repent and accept god in the end, you were still a pretty bad person

of course, this is only my pov... and not agreeing with it certainly does not make anyone a "bad" person in my eyes

Some thoughts and questions -

Christianity teaches that there are consequences to good and bad actions. Is the Christian view unfair somehow in your eyes?

How does your worldview deal with a generally good person that does some bad things on the side that are not found out? Is it just jolly good luck for him that his wrongs never got discovered? What about the ones he wronged? Just their bad luck, and nothing done about it?

Where is the dividing line between "good" and "bad", and why should I accept your position of the line?

What is the POINT of "you are a good person" and "you were still a pretty bad person"? IOW, why does it even matter if there is no afterlife? Why not just grab what you can and to hell (not literally, of course, in your pov! ) with everyone else?

And most important - will you go next on the hotseat? I think answering these questions might take too long, and I really want to finish my turn by Friday

Here's a search text tag - questions for brownie

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Brownie, what I look at in matters like this is the heart of God as expressed in the Bible and as experienced in my life. What I see is a God who HATES lip service because He LOVES people and wants their hearts. Altho some Christians might disagree with me, I think it is entirely possible that the buddhist in your example would go to heaven - but NOT by his works; ONLY by his faith in God.

btw, Ri: Siddharta Gautama is technically not just 'some buddhist.' Gautama is "The Buddha."

Anyway...

Originally Posted by Rian

To sum up - I believe, and the Bible teaches:[list][*]that God is love - think of it! NOT only that God is loving, but that He is the very embodiment of perfect love.[*]that to everyone that seeks Him with all their heart, He will make Himself known; He desires that everyone be saved;

I like that take on it. Closer to something I can believe...

btw, Lief's post that you reposted sparked another question for me.

Unless I'm misinterpretting you, it seems to me that if someone like the Buddha or Gandhi could theoretically gain entrance to Heaven, then Christianity is not a prerequisite.

How would do you think someone would be judged who worships multiple gods that they believe are all simply facets of an ultimate reality or single God. (This is, btw, my understanding of Hinduism. It's not really the point, but if a real Hindu wants to correct me...). Would salvation be possible in this case?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

All I've been protesting about is the validity test. I mean, this validity is not, IMO, a valid concern. If it were, the Baha'i would have the lion's share of validity since Baha'ullah's beautiful poetry was written about 150 years ago.

What in the world does the date of something have to do with validity?

IF you believe that, then here: "Christianity is entirely true!"

Now since that's the most recent statement, it must be the most valid


Seriously, perhaps Baha'ullah wrote beautiful poetry, and I can appreciate it as poetry, but when called to evaluate any truth claim sections - well, there are parts that are contradictory to Christianity (such as he's more important than Jesus), so both can't be true. And validity becomes very important at this point.

And reflecting in truth on general - personally, I would think a really important and fundamental truth would be more likely to have been revealed at an earlier time (as opposed to 150 yrs ago), and at a time and within a people that had things like scribes ... the ancient Hebrews come to mind ...

[Elemmírë]

er... sorry... we posted at about the same time...

[Nurvingiel]

I don't that our perception of time is what effects the thruth. I mean, human beings have only seen a very small snapshot of history, and an infintessimally small shot of time! Perhaps the ultimate truth has yet to be revealed.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

btw, Ri: Siddharta Gautama is technically not just 'some buddhist.' Gautama is "The Buddha."

The "some buddhist" referred to THIS comment by brownie : "a kind and devoute buddist lives his entire life in best accordance with the teachings of Siddartha Gautama... "

Unless I'm misinterpretting you, it seems to me that if someone like the Buddha or Gandhi could theoretically gain entrance to Heaven, then Christianity is not a prerequisite.

This, of course, is the "danger" of saying the thing I did. But I'm not into avoiding danger; I'm only into trying to find truths, so I went ahead and said it. But let me hold off on answering this - I'm almost caught up!! But I'll just note that your conclusion is not at all what I think ...

[Elfhelm]

RÃ*an, I have no idea what you're talking about. The Baha'i do not say that Baha'ullah is more important than Jesus. They consider Jesus one of the great prophets. They believe that God speaks through prophets all the time, not just in the past. Scribes? Baha'ullah wrote his own words for himself. So I have no idea what you're getting at.

I'm not Baha'i, by the way, but I do enjoy their prayers. They preach total abstinence outside of marriage, and oppose gay marriage. I believe in polygamy, birth control, bi-sexuality, and having fun as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. And since I also practice absolute honesty, I won't participate in any religion. Anyway, I think God isn't as mean as other people make Him out to be.

By the way, I don't want a turn in the hot seat. I have no desire to argue my beliefs.

Besides, I'm not the one whose hung up on historical validity. I think something can be "true" while being grossly innacurate historically -- for instance, The Bible.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Why? Is the wisdom any less wise when the fictive elements are acknowledged? The Hindu don't need to validate their myths. They don't doubt their Bhagavad Gita. The Sutras are good instructions without being validated.

IMO, this whole validation thing is the very cause of so many people turning away from wisdom these days. They know the world isn't flat, so they throw out the baby with the bathwater.

And I'll add before I run...

I think people should live their lives according to the wisdom they find in scriptures regardless of the historical accuracy.

I think there are truths in many religions. The truths are those parts which are in agreement with Christianity

Elfhelm, I think the thing you're missing is that if a truth claim says that something must be DONE with your life if you believe the claim, then you better take a serious look at its validity. Many beliefs say things like be kind to your neighbor; many illustrate this truth with fictive (new word for me - I like it ) elements - Jesus Himself used lots of stories! And as our beloved JRR Tolkien said, myth is a very powerful tool to expresses truth. And in his opinion, Christianity is the ONLY entirely true myth. It actually happened in truth/reality.

Now we can look at beautiful stories in the Sutras and see truths in them. However, if the Sutras say lots of truths that resonate with what's in our heart, then they say "and one must daily kill one child or one will end up in eternal damnation", then one better be prepared to decide what to do with that statement.

Now the Bible tells lots of truths, and has lots of beautiful stories, some fictive , that illustrate truths. But the Bible also says that if we reject God's free and loving gift of salvation, then we will be, thru our own choice, in Hell.

And we need to decide what to do with that statement.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

RÃ*an, I have no idea what you're talking about. The Baha'i do not say that Baha'ullah is more important than Jesus.

But according to my references, Baha'i teaches that Adam, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed were all manifestations of God, and each a prophet, and each lived and taught in his own time and taught the way his contemporaries best understood. And that Baha'ullah supersedes the other prophets. But you can even drop the "more important" part - if Baha'ullah is even considered equal to Jesus, then it is a claim contradictory to Christianity.

Scribes? Baha'ullah wrote his own words for himself. So I have no idea what you're getting at.

I was referring to the Hebrew scribes, and how the Bible was given into the keeping of a people that had accurate and careful scribes. Sorry - I kinda changed the subject without explaining!

Besides, I'm not the one whose hung up on historical validity. I think something can be "true" while being grossly innacurate historically

Yes, in a very important sense, as I explained in the post immediately after yours (I think we posted at the same time). But there are also truths that must be acted on, and then the historical validity becomes an important issue, IMO, as I explained in that post.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

And since I also practice absolute honesty, I won't participate in any religion.

These things aren't mutually exclusive, you know I, also, try to practice absolute honesty, as I hope is apparent on this thread, and I "participate" (to use your words) in the religion that I think is absolutely true. But that isn't how I would put it - I would say that I love Jesus, who is Truth Himself, and that's why I strive to be absolutely honest. And I don't participate in a religion - I live in His love.

Anyway, I think God isn't as mean as other people make Him out to be.

I agree Do you think God exists?

By the way, I don't want a turn in the hot seat. I have no desire to argue my beliefs.

I don't like to argue my beliefs, either. But I like to explain them, to those that want to hear because to me, they are life and joy and truth and reason and love.

An atheist or agnostic, esp., has no reason to share their beliefs with others, unless it is that it is better to not believe what is in their opinion a lie. However, Christians have good news and a great love, and this is why they desire to share with others.


The best thing an atheist can share is this : "I think that there is NO God, and I'll try to convince you to believe this, because I think you're believing a lie, and I think it's better to believe what is true. And this is what is true, IMO - you're an entirely unplanned, accidental event of no intrinsic value, and when you're dead, there's no more you. Life is meaningless - or if you can somehow find meaning in life, then it is gone with your death."

Now I agree that it's better to believe what is true, but what an atheist is saying is true is certainly nothing to write home about!

OTOH, I share this : "I think that there IS a God, and I'll try to convince you to believe this, because I think you're believing a lie, and I think it's better to believe what is true. (note - the SAME opening sentence except for one word!) And the truth just happens to be an amazingly beautiful thing! God loves you tremendously - He planned you before the earth was made! He lovingly formed you in your mother's womb. He watches you day and night. He longs to be reconciled to you, and if you seek Him with all your heart, He will reveal Himself to you! And His Spirit will come to live inside your very heart, and help and comfort and guide you every single minute of every day. And He is your healer, and the lover of your heart. And He keeps you here on earth for a short time, to teach your soul His truths and to minister to others and to experience brief glimpses of His joy - then at the time He knows is best, He takes you home to His heart to be in joy for all eternity!"

And THAT, IMHO, is news to write home about

[Elfhelm]

Thanks for your responses. I guess you just got to that page.

I have no idea what to tell you. I have seen a lot of bad things in this world and most of them are caused by people who say that God gave them permission to hurt other people. I have checked these religions off from a list. I am sorry to say that Baha'i is only the most recent religion to be elimininated from the list. Yours was checked off years ago when I read the Old Testament. I always thought Jesus was cool, but just look at Northern Ireland. Both sides seem to think Jesus is OK with what they are doing. And the way American Christians seem to think it's OK to bomb civilians... well, I still think Jesus was cool, but Christians get him all wrong.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The "some buddhist" referred to THIS comment by brownie : "a kind and devoute buddist lives his entire life in best accordance with the teachings of Siddartha Gautama... "

Gyaaa! Sorry, I need my eyes checked again. I've got to be clinically blind by now... (btw, I'm not joking )