11-16-2005, 11:25 PM | #721 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
|
|
11-18-2005, 01:35 AM | #722 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Inked, about the "Forget monogamy and swinging. We're seriously polyamorous" article... what does that have to do with gay marriage? But that was an interesting article. I actually had know idea people did that. You learn something new every day!
Quote:
How exactly is gay marriage deconstructionalist? Isn't marriage, by its very nature, constructionalist? I think including more loving couples in the institution of marriage strengthens it, and is therefore the exact opposite of deconstructionalism. Your thoughts?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-18-2005 at 01:36 AM. Reason: spelling |
|||
11-18-2005, 01:51 PM | #723 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Nurv, did you read the article? In its entirety? Plybihomohetero-amory.
Anomalies are not constitutive realites, TWFM. There are no societies that have done as you suggest in regard to wholesale homosexual "marriages". That's why yo call for the changing of tradition - which is absolute testimony to the reality of heterosexual marriage being the state of marriage and the anomalies being, in fact/history/reality, anomalies.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-18-2005, 07:02 PM | #724 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I did read the whole article. The reference that some of the married couples also had gay partners totally slipped my mind. I still don't know what exactly this says about gay marriage though. It's really a confusing situation over-all.
Plybihomo-what now? Wouldn't that situation make the person bisexual? And also cheating on their husband or wife, except not, since the other person seems cool with it. Edited to add: Quote:
I'm not saying the Founding Fathers were Puritans. My point is many early settlers experienced persecution for their religion, and when the USA was founded, the founders made sure that wouldn't happen again. (I really hope the above was right. If not, I apologize for misquoting your history, and I'll think of a better example.)
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-18-2005 at 07:07 PM. |
|||
11-19-2005, 08:53 AM | #725 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
I said: 1. committed same-sex relationships have existed since the beginning of humanity, well before cristrianity. I have not claimed that they were common but I have claimed that they were not anomalous 2. cristianity is not traditional, rather it is an invention that occurred in a very specific historical moment around what is now called 30-150AC by either one man, Paul, or two, Jesus and Paul (we are not really sure whether Jesus really existed or whether (if he existed) he meant to rupture with the Jewish religion) 3. I don't give a damn about what is the tradition and all women and men of good will should not give a damn about tradition. All women and men of good will should be concerned to do what is right and what is right is to give same-sex couples the same rights and the same obligations as different-sex couples Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 11-19-2005 at 10:18 AM. |
|
11-19-2005, 04:50 PM | #726 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
You say anomaly like it's a bad think Inked!
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
11-19-2005, 04:53 PM | #727 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Christianity has existed since the beginning of time
(actually, even before!! )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-19-2005, 04:55 PM | #728 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Quote:
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
|
11-19-2005, 05:07 PM | #729 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
11-19-2005, 06:44 PM | #730 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
|
Quote:
Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about.
__________________
Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
|
11-20-2005, 06:48 PM | #731 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Well quoted, Mercutio!
I note for the record, again, that TWFM wants us to go along with the tradition of justice as he understands it. Why, precisely, his selection of which traditions to make binding have more force than any others, I have repeatedly questioned and obtained the response "because I say so." That is adisguised argument from tradition. Note that it is a tradition of one. However, the tradition of justice has its origins in natural philosophy and in religion. In point of fact, the Ten Commandments are a specific expression of that part of the natural order as a constituitive part of the created order (sourced in the Creator) and remarkably, as recorded in the Old Testament prophetic explications and calls to renew and remember that covenantal relationship, became the foundation of western concepts leading to democratic polity. The alien and stranger are to be cared for in response to the mode of justice and mercy. That does not entail, IMHO or necessarily, the abdication of tradition in this matter. What we have is a call to upset the apple cart so the oranges won't be offended. It's alright to be an orange, but all apples are not thereby oranges.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-20-2005, 06:59 PM | #732 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
We can't be blinded by our faith and ruled by our traditions. When the New Testament was compiled, we did away with old traditions such as circumcision and staying away from pork. Societies change as so should we.
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
11-20-2005, 07:55 PM | #733 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
I am not appealing to any tradition of justice. I am telling you what justice is. I am defining the moral values and call on you to respect them. You either believe my view of ethics (either because you believe my word or because you happen to share the same ideas) and therefore act morally; or you don't share my view of ethics and therefore act immorally Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 11-20-2005 at 11:24 PM. |
|
11-20-2005, 08:07 PM | #734 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
Somehow our society seems much more fascinated with two men having sex than two women. Thoughts?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
11-20-2005, 09:37 PM | #735 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
Quote:
Last edited by Arien the Maia : 11-20-2005 at 09:40 PM. |
|
11-20-2005, 09:38 PM | #736 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
11-20-2005, 10:37 PM | #737 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Thanks Lotesse! Maybe men have a lot to deal with in terms of society's expectation of gender roles. I have a theory about sexism in western society today. Bear with me here, as this does become relevant.
It used to be that our society was sexist against women. Our society was male-dominated. In some ways, this still does occur, but the most dominant form of sexism now is against femininity. It is acceptable for women to wear men's pants. It is unacceptable for men to wear women's dresses. Women work in traditionally male-dominated careers like lawyers, doctors, or politicians. (Women only appear to be largely absent from trades.) Men do work in traditionally female-dominated careers like care-givers or nurses, but to a lesser extent. A woman who has a number of masculine traits is seen as being cool. Let's say she drinks beer, drives a pick-up truck, and changes her own oil. This woman is approved of by society. Women who have more female traits like wanting to be a stay-at-home mom, baking, or sewing are looked down on by men and other women. In sum, women are equal as long as they're masculine (because they display mostly masculine and/or gender-neutral traits). At this point I'll point out that obviously people aren't this simple, and neither is our society. But I think there is a sexism towards femininity that can be expressed in this cut and dry way. Now, let's take society's view of gay people. I think where there is a couple, one is the male figure, and one is the female figure. In straight couples, the man is the male figure, and the woman is the female figure. Note that when the woman is seen by others as "wearing the pants" in the relationship, it is the man, and not the woman or both of them, who is mocked. Between two women, society (by which I mean other people's perception of them as a couple) puts one woman into the "male" role, and the other into the "female" role, regardless how the two women define their relationship. They may not have traditional roles at all, though neither to my straight boyfriend and I. I think slotting people into traditional roles has contributed to the silly short hair = lesbian stereotype, for example. For gay couples, society also imposes these roles on them. While it is acceptable for women to be masculine, it is not okay for one of the men to be in the female role (even though again, they may not see themselves that way). I think society's fascination about gay couples is partly due to our insistence upon gender roles. (I think there are also other factors like the media and probably a host of others.) I also think that insisting upon traditional gender roles fosters non-acceptance of sexuality that isn't expressed traditionally. Personally, I don't give two craps if a man likes to sew or wants to go about in a dress, but I think you can tell from my postings that I'm not worried about gay people either. (Now I almost want one of my male classmates to show up in a dress to test me on that. I really think that I wouldn't judge him though. I might be curious, but I don't think I would judge.) Thoughts?
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-20-2005 at 10:41 PM. Reason: spelling and paragraph spacing |
||
11-20-2005, 10:46 PM | #738 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Great points! The dress-wearing exception could be the Saudis, running around w/ robes on... no just kidding. It's true, in general there is DEFinitely a discrimination against femininity across the board, and it'll probably still be more time that has to go by until the world slowly but surely "evens out" in this regard, just as it has taken so many thousands of years of human progression society-wise just to get to the points we're at today, as far as equality in the workplace, acceptance & integration of sexual differences, giving women the friggin' VOTE didn't even happen 'til the early twentieth century - not that long ago.
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
11-20-2005, 11:09 PM | #739 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Actually, a lot of cultures have dress-like clothes. In India there are dhotis, for example. (I don't know if I spelt that right.) I was confining my comments to modern western society, though I agree that sexism is global.
You bring up a good point with women and the vote. Equal rights is a relatively new idea (an anomaly, even ), and we still have not properly put the concept into action.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
11-21-2005, 02:18 AM | #740 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II | Spock | General Messages | 971 | 12-04-2015 03:49 PM |
Homosexual marriage | Rían | General Messages | 999 | 12-06-2006 04:46 PM |