06-16-2008, 03:45 AM | #721 | |||
Elf Lord
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Sis, whether my Bible copy is "preferred" or "current" is irrelevant. The same meaning can be found in these verses in any of the broadly accepted translations. You are only using these words to mock. Quote:
We know that the Early Church attributed the teachings of these epistles to the disciples and many of the Church Fathers who were instructed to pass on the disciples' teaching died for their belief in what they were doing, which shows that they were pretty well chosen and that they sincerely did their best to pass on these teachings accurately. We have their testimony to confirm the testimony of the Gospels. It is strong evidence. Quote:
I think I'm finished responding to you on this thread, for quite a while at least, Sis. The sneering and sarcastic tone that permeates many of your posts makes it impossible for me to respond to them with any pleasure.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-16-2008 at 03:53 AM. |
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06-16-2008, 05:42 AM | #722 |
the Shrike
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You reap what you sow, I think is the phrase on the tip of my brain. Perhaps if you hadn't been so insufferable when sis first came on this site, she'd be nicer to you now, huh?
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06-16-2008, 09:44 AM | #723 |
Kraken King
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I'm actually a little saddened to see that this thread has come down to [edited] insults, rather than intelligent discussin.
(thought I'd clarify a bit, the word "base" is much too strong a word to use here, and I appologize for it's use.)
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons Last edited by Nautipus : 06-16-2008 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Overstepping bounds |
06-16-2008, 12:11 PM | #724 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-16-2008, 12:14 PM | #725 | |
Kraken King
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I didnt mean the entire thread either, just lately. Tonight I'll have plenty of sit-down time to reply to you in full on you're reply to me.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-16-2008, 12:19 PM | #726 | ||||
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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The point I was making was that being poor is misery. It is not enjoyable. It is a heavy burden, and I speak from experience of having been around poor people, talked and played football and had a few beers with many very poor people in both South America and Africa. All display happiness and laughter and are as reflective as you and I, but there's the extra dimension of being poor, not having money, not being able to make the improvements in life, caring for family and friends, that they would like. It lingers on the mind and it reflects in a person. This is a miserable situation which all poor people despair in, but you'll never hear much complaining. It's part of the dignity in human nature bar the small percentage that are so poor they see no alternative but to beg. Poor or rich, we do not want to expose our misery to others in fear of looking weak. Quote:
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Let's remember the insightful founding fathers of the USA decided that all men are created equal, just as the Dutch decided in similar, yet less eloquently put terms, in the Treaty of Münster of 1648 (little known treaty! Yet very influential). These words of justice, and of law, came around with the Enlightenment, but the enforcement was overlooked by executive branches and vested interests. With the advent of liberal democracy (not simply democracy which can exist in brutal forms) in Europe and in N. America, slavery has found its end.
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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06-16-2008, 12:46 PM | #727 |
Elf Lord
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I'm pointing out a number of things.
First, that all the "evidence" under discussion here is coming from a biased source. Neither Lief (nor anyone else here) has any direct knowledge (or supporting evidence) that "The Bible" is an historical account of the life and death of Jesus, or any apostles. That's actually a pretty big deal, since thousands of people have devoted their lives to finding some. There IS such a field as biblical scholarship. People working in that field use various methods to date the texts known as the Bible. People also study the conflicts that resulted in certain texts being considered canonical, and others not. There is not widespread agreement even among Christians as to which books of the Bible are IN the Bible. Therefore, asking what version people are using is pretty elementary, in any debate. Lief cites his sources as "the Bible", and I have no idea whether he's looking at a Douay Bible, a Vulgate Bible, the King James version, or a Lutheran version. This really frustrates me, as his fall-back position is his own personal direct revelation, which is pretty independent of analysis. This may sound stupid to some of you, but I actively worry about Lief. In fact, I pray for him daily. I think he is mired in a lot of Paulist who-shot john, and misses the essential message of the Good News, and it MATTERS to me that he appears to spend so much time with Acts, the Epistles and Revelation that listening to the Gospels is secondary. I would like him to consider whether his religion is actually about Jesus or about other guys. And I would LIKE everyone reading these threads to ask themselves "Is the Truth of the existence of God dependent on tradition, or understanding, or is it available to all, as a free gift?" I have a strong personal faith, which I do not discuss here. Nonetheless, I can't walk away from so much error foisted on young people easily. I want everyone to be able to tap the strength that is available to all, and I don't want complicated and judgemental versions of faith to pose a barrier. I'm very sorry that my eloquence is so often exceeded by my passion.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-16-2008, 01:02 PM | #728 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I responded to the points you just made about poverty in post 714, Coffeehouse. I await your response to that .
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I can prove many of my other points too. Patrick Henry, for instance, said that the US Constitution was a "godless abomination" because it didn't include any state religion. In the early 20th century, Catholics all over America were required to recite in church a decree that they would oppose moral licentiousness in the film industry. That ended up breaking down with time, but it shows how moral changes can be opposed. Just look at the reactions of most parents to the behavior of their kids in the Sexual Revolution of the 60's! I was taught in class about how China originally was extremely resistant to Communist ideology because of their traditional conservative base. When people grew up assuming monarchy is right, the advent of Democracy, Fascism or Communism seemed horrible to many, which is part of the reason why there were so many civil wars. Many, many people vigorously opposed it. Look at the efforts of Margaret Sanger and the birth control movement. They were a tiny, tiny minority among the US, universally opposed, in the beginning. But they won through a very slow, hard and vigorous process that included a lot of political maneuvering. People back in the 17th century had laws against sexual immorality and vigorously opposed its practice. They would have been horrified to look forward into later centuries and see what has happened. People today are horrified at the moral changes in homosexual marriage and abortion. Homosexuality was considered a deviant behavior in the Psychiatric Association until the mid-20th century, and it was only changed amidst enormous controversy. Many people were dismayed when anti-witchcraft laws were repealed, just as many fought and died against those who tried to replace the monarchy with democracies or communism. What I'm saying about each generation finding its moral changes to be an abomination at first, and the nations only coming to accept them as time goes on, is plain history. It's not anything radical. Each of the past generations would have looked forward two or three centuries and would have been horrified, because their own moral upbringings and points of view were so intensely different. That's the result of upbringing. That's why it has taken centuries for the morals of our countries to develop to the point that they are now. People won't make huge leaps and most will despise smaller scale changes as they occur. If people grow up thinking one way, they'll tend to oppose big deviations from what they've grown up thinking. This isn't guesswork. It's history. A quick examination of the writings of the people of past generations will quickly show how they supported vigorously concepts that directly opposed the moral "developments" of our age. Quote:
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Also, in Britain, for a long time slavery was not illegal, even though they had a Parliament and constitutional monarchy. This was not the pressure of the monarch that kept slavery legal, either. Parliament was perfectly accepting of slavery because it had such a strong economic benefit for the nation. Quote:
Liberal democracy existed a long time before slavery ended. English Parliament, America, and other European powers were all accepting of slavery. Liberal democracy didn't end it. Abolitionist movements within European countries, led by William Wilburforce, Abraham Lincoln and many others, can claim the credit for bringing about the end of this slavery. Power elites within the democratic structures had been able to maintain slavery through the laws for a long time before that. It was a battle within the system, and the hard work of the abolitionists, that created a victory for anti-slavery forces. It was not the system itself that created this victory (Remember Dred Scott).
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-16-2008, 01:12 PM | #729 | ||
The Ñoldóran
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I would say that you need to read Mary Wollstonecraft (18th century) and the ideas of American feminists such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony. They most certainly did not just want education and believe that women belonged out of politics and in the home. In fact, here are the operative clauses of the Declaration of Sentiments from the Seneca Falls convention (1848): Quote:
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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06-16-2008, 01:32 PM | #730 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, but Curufin, I was saying that if someone from one generation was able to look ahead two or three centuries, they'd be horrified by what they saw. You're talking one century. However, I'll mention that Elizabeth Cady Stanton termed abortion "infanticide," and Susan B. Anthony called it, "child murder."
Mary Astell was an 18th century writer. Her writings show she would have opposed the feminism of Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Stanton, the 19th century feminists. Their writings, in turn, show how they would have opposed the feminist activists of the 20th century. Each century's feminists explicitly stated their vigorous opposition to important activities of feminists of the next century. So we can see from their own writings how each moral development would have been seen as an abomination to the people who came before. It is not illogical, therefore, to suppose that the next century or two's moral developments would be seen as horrible by today's generation. That is a theme of modern history.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-16-2008, 01:43 PM | #731 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Actually, I'm not talking just one century - that's why I posted Mary Wollstonecraft.
Vindication of the Rights of Women (1792): Quote:
Of course history moves on - in fact, Marx claims that the prevailing beliefs of each age will be the obverse of the last - a theory known as dialectical materialism.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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06-16-2008, 02:26 PM | #732 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I find it very fascinating to think about John Dryden's 17th century "Absalom and Achitophel," when thinking about the changes of modern times. John Dryden was a brilliant political thinker. He said that democracy led to anarchy. While in our time it's easy to scoff at that, we need to think about what his perspective of anarchy would have been. He grew up in a time when the monarchy was to be supported, when sexual immorality (hetero and homo) was illegal, when abortion was illegal, when women having equal rights with men was seen as absurd, when state religions were still enforced on society and the spread of all kinds of other religions was illegal, and when witchcraft was illegal. If he had looked forward into the future and seen where democracy has led us, he would have seen his view as utterly, completely confirmed. The difference is that elements he would have considered to be "anarchic," we accept as good and valid. To him, they would show the disintegration of law, and indeed, he has a point, for each of these developments constitutes a repealing of laws in favor of greater openness and freedom. He was right that democracy would lead to what in his view would have been the path into anarchy. All our freedoms and developments would, to him, have been elements of anarchy, people doing what they want without respect for what's right, etc. Democracy led and is leading to greater anarchy, according to his definition of the meaning of anarchy (the repealing of morally upright laws to open the gates to chaos and immorality). Greater and greater liberty allowing more and more immorality is of course a road to anarchy. Complete liberty is anarchy itself. And the changes that have occurred, the liberalizing that has developed, to his view would have been immoral and thus freedom to do hideous things increasing and increasing over time. We just evaluate the changes differently than he did. He foresaw modern liberties (to him, they would have been part and parcel of anarchy), recognized them as a natural product of democracy, and vigorously opposed them. He was intelligent enough to see where democracy would lead. Almost all of our freedoms would have confirmed his view, from his perspective. He would have seen us as receiving greater and greater liberty allowing greater and greater immorality, and in his view, it will end with complete liberty, complete immorality, absolute anarchy. And a continuing thread of our civilizations has been a continuing progression toward that state of complete liberty. More and more liberties come to exist with each century. Who's to say where or if it will stop? Even if it does stop, someday, it's fascinating the man's foresight of what to him would have all been anarchic changes of our history. He saw hundreds of years of history before they happened and was repelled by them because of the time when he grew up. The original proponents of democracy would never have believed the liberties they supported would turn into what they have, else they probably would never have supported them. It's so interesting to think about history from the viewpoints of those living in it, to see how they would have seen its developments and what they did predict of it from their worldviews, how those predictions and viewpoints, true or false, weave together with what has been, is and is likely to come in a fascinating array of colors. It's quite amazing.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-16-2008 at 02:29 PM. |
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06-16-2008, 02:37 PM | #733 | |||||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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06-16-2008, 03:05 PM | #734 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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We're in the bad government, not the worst. Living in the best would be ideal, so I advocate it, but I'd prefer to live in the bad one than the worst- the one that makes the good illegal. Quote:
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Also, I mentioned the resurrection evidence and the prophetic evidence. I'll get back to this later, I expect. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-16-2008, 05:55 PM | #735 | |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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In any case, have you heard of the Divinely inspired, Holy Spirit guided man of the name Joseph Kony? I'd like you to Google him and read a bit about him. Might shock!
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"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare." |
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06-16-2008, 06:45 PM | #736 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'm just saying if you had homosexual instincts, and were an atheist, you might feel there was nothing wrong with following them. Or if you were a heterosexual, you might feel it's fine to get a divorce or sleep with a girlfriend or something. The person's religious point of view will influence what kinds of actions they'll take.
Was your sentence above intended to be your complete response to my last post? If so, okay. But I'd like to know. Quote:
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By the way, the first and last sentences of your post were condescending. I'd appreciate less of that. I have never treated your posts in that way.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-16-2008 at 06:52 PM. |
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06-16-2008, 07:07 PM | #737 | ||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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But do you really think that among those people there aren't any who are against drug abuse, theft and murder and would support a legislation against them, regardless of what they did themselves? You've got to find a compromise for as many people as you can in the end. Not just between what people want, but what is good for people as well, and 'good' is far greater than morality alone. Obviously you can't please anyone. But things will be more workable if you don't base your laws on one single, arbitrarily chosen religion. Quote:
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Or, if I had no religion, I just as well might start up an orphanage for war-orphans. What's stopping me? We-ell, aside from funding, that is. Religion and morality are not the same thing. Religion is just a system of specific moral rules and rituals. The absence of religion does not equal an inmoral existance, it's just a different one.
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We are not things. |
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06-16-2008, 07:39 PM | #738 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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If religions other than Christianity damn people to hell, and freedom of religion kills hundreds and hundreds of millions of people, then these things too don't deserve the same privilege. Quote:
Also, God did reveal himself in a crystal-clear way when he sent his Son to die and rise from the dead for us, and ascend into heaven, and the disciples witnessed it all and then died for their testimony, proving their sincerity. God didn't wait for humans to seek him out- he came to them in human form. And he revealed his truth all over the world so that you can hear his voice wherever you turn. He puts the hunger for God into each heart, the lacking of something, and he draws souls to himself by this means, speaking in their ears all the time, in many ways. He made his identity clear when he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Quote:
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"You don't have examples of multiple people dying for their own eyewitness testimony when they know it's false. In fact, I think Christianity is alone in [having eyewitnesses of its marvels who died for their testimony]." Lol. Quote:
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Christianity creates unity with God. That is the most important factor of religion. For many people, it is experiential, a day to day experience of encountering God. They experience his love and joy, hear his voice, see their prayers answered and witness miracles. They know him intimately as a dear, dear friend. The dearest of all. He brings our thoughts and actions into unification with him, which makes them increasingly loving and pure as we gain deeper intimacy with him. Morality springs naturally out of deep love for God, and out of unity with him. Rituals are simply ways of coming to hear his voice and come closer to him. Most of them are ways of communing with God, like having supper with a friend and chatting with them across the table. The moral laws are ways to become united with God's love. All of them are expressions of his love. We unite with them because we want to be united with God, with Love. If we break these laws, we are stepping out of unity with God, which is destructive because God is Love, and all his will is love, and anything we do that is outside of his will is unloving. The absence of religion creates a different moral framework for the person than a religious person might have. Morality springs from religion all the time, whether from its absence or its presence.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-17-2008, 02:20 AM | #739 | |||||||
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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06-17-2008, 03:16 AM | #740 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Curufin, you said these things:
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I realize you might not buy my argument about the 1-2 billion deaths, as it's stated on post 720 (though that post summarizes it fairly well). I provided a lot more evidence and detail explaining my positions on it in posts 663, 702 and 704. Which are gigantic, because I went into so much depth. Sorry about that, though not really . I like to be thorough. I don't plan on repeating all that again here, though . *Head spins at the thought.* Quote:
I know they weren't popular. They were brutal conquerors, really savages, though technologically and culturally sophisticated. But why should their popularity matter? My point was just that not all religions should receive equal status with all others, and they're a good example of why. If I have to pick on a popular one, though, I'd pick Islam. They were conquerors right from the start. Almost all of their empire was taken through conquest. According to historian William Durant, they killed about 80 million people when they conquered India. They attacked the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires simultaneously in the 7th century, and with time they defeated them all. They were superb warriors, terrifyingly efficient, and they launched wars of unprovoked religious aggression for centuries until Westerners gained vastly superior technology during the Age of Reason and overwhelmed them. Then Islam changed and became much more peaceful. But there is a resurgence in its violent elements today, for sure, and religion is one of their key motivators. It's one among several. I'm only picking on Islam here because its shocking history of expansionist violence makes it such an obvious choice. Other major religions have their faults too. Popularity isn't such a big deal, though, as regards my point. My point was simply that religions don't all deserve equal standing. The Aztec religion is a good enough example to make my case. If you want to challenge my statement about the violence in Islam's history, let's do it in the Muslims thread, or one of those others. Quote:
I don't know why he sometimes takes a long time in responding. And I don't know if it's him or something else that causes that time gap. I know that occurs. I've talked to other people who spent years searching too. Did you ever learn much about spiritual meditation? There are a number of Christian meditation practices that help. Quite different from Eastern meditation, but they can be useful over the long haul. I really don't know enough about you or your circumstances or past to make any guesses or comments about the search you conducted, though. I admire you for making it, though. Quote:
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Yes, parents and early socialization help to train us in our moral beliefs, as well as in our religious beliefs. I agree.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-17-2008 at 03:27 AM. |
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