11-30-2004, 04:55 PM | #721 |
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No, Nurvi, you got that mixed up I grew up attending a Methodist church, which my parents went to because that's what "good" people did (they were NOT Christians at the time, but they had grown up attending church). That church was as dead as a doornail spiritually, and there was definitely hypocrisy there, too, altho I was too young to see a lot of it. After I became a Christian, I was drawn to non-denominational churches, and in my experience, they are the ones, typically, that have a greater chance of having leaders that are full of the love and life of Christ.
OK - on to TD's questions!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-30-2004, 05:05 PM | #722 | |
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What can I say, the minister's daughter was in my grade, and a real... um... primadonna... I'd use other words but I'm not yet sure what sort of language is allowed here... But beyond that, I was simply unable to believe in much of it at all anymore. Though some interpretations I like much more than others... Sorry, Ri... please continue.
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11-30-2004, 05:25 PM | #723 | ||
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The first looks like you're asking about when a person becomes a Christian. I've explained a coupla times how I think that works, and that the basics are as follows:
SO - in the one sense, the most important sense, you need to ask God for forgiveness once and only once - at the time of your decision to become a Christian. And when the above steps (or something like them) are taken, God says that something so profound happens - that we are actually "born again" - hence the common term "born-again Christians". Jesus taught in the book of John that in order to have eternal life, one must be born twice : once from their mother, and once spiritually. And upon this second birth, we are actually a new creation in Christ! He speaks of this as dying to your old life and being born into the eternal one. And all I can say is that I have found that to be blessedly true and that really, nothing else quite describes it so well - I KNEW something had changed - radically, fundamentally and permanently - in my life when I became a Christian. Not that I became perfect by any means! but ... but ... I hardly know how to express it by typing words! - I guess one thing was that now I was being changed from the inside-OUT, or from the heart to the outside, instead of just trying to change my outward behavior. And this is also where that theme of "substitution" that I talked about earlier is actually realized - Jesus is our substitution - He took our place on death row and took our penalty upon Himself. And the Bible uses the picture of a "covering" - when God looks at Christians, He doesn't see our imperfections, but rather the righteousness of Jesus, because our sins are "covered" and obliterated by His blood that was shed for us. The second angle of this is that the Bible says that after we become Christians, we need to confess our sins daily to God, so He can cleanse us and help us. Now this is a different thing from the salvation "confessing" described above - it's a daily help for us in real life. Now if I lied and immediately had a heart attack and died, I would still be saved, even tho I didn't confess that particular sin to God, because at the moment of my salvation, ALL of my sins - past, present and future - were covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. But I am better off obeying God's loving instructions to me, and confessing my daily sins to Him, because thru this, He works his healing in me Does that make sense? Do you see the difference? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-30-2004 at 05:39 PM. |
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11-30-2004, 05:50 PM | #724 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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11-30-2004, 05:53 PM | #725 | ||
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Brownie, what I look at in matters like this is the heart of God as expressed in the Bible and as experienced in my life. What I see is a God who HATES lip service because He LOVES people and wants their hearts. Altho some Christians might disagree with me, I think it is entirely possible that the buddhist in your example would go to heaven - but NOT by his works; ONLY by his faith in God. However, works come OUT of faith, too - yet only God can tell whether works are just for show or out of a right heart. The Bible tells over and over of a God that is just and holy and loving; I cannot imagine a God throwing someone out of heaven on a "technicality" if in their heart they are seeking God, yet don't know His name. Yet this is no reason to stop sharing Christianity; even if a person is saved thru their faith, knowing the truths of Christianity (and the wonderfully practical helps in the Bible!) will enrich his/her life. To sum up - I believe, and the Bible teaches:
THIS is the God that is described in the Bible, and the God I know and love. And that wants to know and love YOU, brownie, and everyone else here.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-30-2004 at 05:57 PM. |
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11-30-2004, 05:57 PM | #726 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-30-2004, 06:05 PM | #727 | |
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I think Gandhi might have been saved (see my post to brownie above), but it is presumptuous for them to say that he was, for God alone is the judge of this.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-30-2004, 06:08 PM | #728 | |
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placeholder ....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-30-2004, 06:13 PM | #729 | |
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Christianity teaches that there are consequences to good and bad actions. Is the Christian view unfair somehow in your eyes? How does your worldview deal with a generally good person that does some bad things on the side that are not found out? Is it just jolly good luck for him that his wrongs never got discovered? What about the ones he wronged? Just their bad luck, and nothing done about it? Where is the dividing line between "good" and "bad", and why should I accept your position of the line? What is the POINT of "you are a good person" and "you were still a pretty bad person"? IOW, why does it even matter if there is no afterlife? Why not just grab what you can and to hell (not literally, of course, in your pov! ) with everyone else? And most important - will you go next on the hotseat? I think answering these questions might take too long, and I really want to finish my turn by Friday Here's a search text tag - questions for brownie
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-30-2004 at 06:15 PM. |
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11-30-2004, 06:25 PM | #730 | ||
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Anyway... Quote:
btw, Lief's post that you reposted sparked another question for me. Unless I'm misinterpretting you, it seems to me that if someone like the Buddha or Gandhi could theoretically gain entrance to Heaven, then Christianity is not a prerequisite. How would do you think someone would be judged who worships multiple gods that they believe are all simply facets of an ultimate reality or single God. (This is, btw, my understanding of Hinduism. It's not really the point, but if a real Hindu wants to correct me...). Would salvation be possible in this case?
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11-30-2004, 06:26 PM | #731 | |
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IF you believe that, then here: "Christianity is entirely true!" Now since that's the most recent statement, it must be the most valid Seriously, perhaps Baha'ullah wrote beautiful poetry, and I can appreciate it as poetry, but when called to evaluate any truth claim sections - well, there are parts that are contradictory to Christianity (such as he's more important than Jesus), so both can't be true. And validity becomes very important at this point. And reflecting in truth on general - personally, I would think a really important and fundamental truth would be more likely to have been revealed at an earlier time (as opposed to 150 yrs ago), and at a time and within a people that had things like scribes ... the ancient Hebrews come to mind ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-01-2004 at 12:53 PM. Reason: clear up the last sentence |
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11-30-2004, 06:27 PM | #732 |
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er... sorry... we posted at about the same time...
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11-30-2004, 06:36 PM | #733 | ||
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I don't that our perception of time is what effects the thruth. I mean, human beings have only seen a very small snapshot of history, and an infintessimally small shot of time! Perhaps the ultimate truth has yet to be revealed.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-30-2004, 06:36 PM | #734 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-30-2004, 06:38 PM | #735 |
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R*an, I have no idea what you're talking about. The Baha'i do not say that Baha'ullah is more important than Jesus. They consider Jesus one of the great prophets. They believe that God speaks through prophets all the time, not just in the past. Scribes? Baha'ullah wrote his own words for himself. So I have no idea what you're getting at.
I'm not Baha'i, by the way, but I do enjoy their prayers. They preach total abstinence outside of marriage, and oppose gay marriage. I believe in polygamy, birth control, bi-sexuality, and having fun as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. And since I also practice absolute honesty, I won't participate in any religion. Anyway, I think God isn't as mean as other people make Him out to be. By the way, I don't want a turn in the hot seat. I have no desire to argue my beliefs. Besides, I'm not the one whose hung up on historical validity. I think something can be "true" while being grossly innacurate historically -- for instance, The Bible. Last edited by Elfhelm : 11-30-2004 at 06:40 PM. |
11-30-2004, 06:44 PM | #736 | |
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Elfhelm, I think the thing you're missing is that if a truth claim says that something must be DONE with your life if you believe the claim, then you better take a serious look at its validity. Many beliefs say things like be kind to your neighbor; many illustrate this truth with fictive (new word for me - I like it ) elements - Jesus Himself used lots of stories! And as our beloved JRR Tolkien said, myth is a very powerful tool to expresses truth. And in his opinion, Christianity is the ONLY entirely true myth. It actually happened in truth/reality. Now we can look at beautiful stories in the Sutras and see truths in them. However, if the Sutras say lots of truths that resonate with what's in our heart, then they say "and one must daily kill one child or one will end up in eternal damnation", then one better be prepared to decide what to do with that statement. Now the Bible tells lots of truths, and has lots of beautiful stories, some fictive , that illustrate truths. But the Bible also says that if we reject God's free and loving gift of salvation, then we will be, thru our own choice, in Hell. And we need to decide what to do with that statement.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-30-2004, 06:51 PM | #737 | |||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-30-2004 at 06:54 PM. |
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11-30-2004, 06:59 PM | #738 | |||
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An atheist or agnostic, esp., has no reason to share their beliefs with others, unless it is that it is better to not believe what is in their opinion a lie. However, Christians have good news and a great love, and this is why they desire to share with others. The best thing an atheist can share is this : "I think that there is NO God, and I'll try to convince you to believe this, because I think you're believing a lie, and I think it's better to believe what is true. And this is what is true, IMO - you're an entirely unplanned, accidental event of no intrinsic value, and when you're dead, there's no more you. Life is meaningless - or if you can somehow find meaning in life, then it is gone with your death." Now I agree that it's better to believe what is true, but what an atheist is saying is true is certainly nothing to write home about! OTOH, I share this : "I think that there IS a God, and I'll try to convince you to believe this, because I think you're believing a lie, and I think it's better to believe what is true. (note - the SAME opening sentence except for one word!) And the truth just happens to be an amazingly beautiful thing! God loves you tremendously - He planned you before the earth was made! He lovingly formed you in your mother's womb. He watches you day and night. He longs to be reconciled to you, and if you seek Him with all your heart, He will reveal Himself to you! And His Spirit will come to live inside your very heart, and help and comfort and guide you every single minute of every day. And He is your healer, and the lover of your heart. And He keeps you here on earth for a short time, to teach your soul His truths and to minister to others and to experience brief glimpses of His joy - then at the time He knows is best, He takes you home to His heart to be in joy for all eternity!" And THAT, IMHO, is news to write home about
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-30-2004 at 07:10 PM. |
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11-30-2004, 07:23 PM | #739 |
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Thanks for your responses. I guess you just got to that page.
I have no idea what to tell you. I have seen a lot of bad things in this world and most of them are caused by people who say that God gave them permission to hurt other people. I have checked these religions off from a list. I am sorry to say that Baha'i is only the most recent religion to be elimininated from the list. Yours was checked off years ago when I read the Old Testament. I always thought Jesus was cool, but just look at Northern Ireland. Both sides seem to think Jesus is OK with what they are doing. And the way American Christians seem to think it's OK to bomb civilians... well, I still think Jesus was cool, but Christians get him all wrong. |
11-30-2004, 07:25 PM | #740 | |
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