08-24-2005, 08:10 AM | #721 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree with Rian: my understanding of this thread is that it's about how evolution should be taught, not on the finer points of the debate. That is, it's about pedagogical and political choices around how the material is introduced in schools.
In which case: Quote:
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08-24-2005, 08:10 AM | #722 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree with Rian: my understanding of this thread is that it's about how evolution should be taught, not on the finer points of the debate. That is, it's about pedagogical and political choices around how the material is introduced in schools.
In which case: Quote:
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08-24-2005, 08:44 AM | #723 | |
Lady of Letters
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Quote:
That doesn't solve the issue of how evolution should be taught in science classes, but it's worth thinking about.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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08-24-2005, 08:44 AM | #724 | |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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Quote:
That doesn't solve the issue of how evolution should be taught in science classes, but it's worth thinking about.
__________________
And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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08-24-2005, 09:13 AM | #725 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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philosophy was an elective when i went to high school, but i agree... as i've said elsewhere, i'd really like to see required "comparative religion" courses... maybe starting around the 6th grade... in such a class you could study the religions of the world and how they deal with various philosophical questions, and also how various philosophers throughout history have dealt with the same questions... that way when it is brought up in science class that evolution is just one scientific theory about how we got here but there are also many belief systems out there from hindu to catholic that have different ideas, there would be another class where these kind of things could be discussed and compared in more depth
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08-24-2005, 09:13 AM | #726 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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philosophy was an elective when i went to high school, but i agree... as i've said elsewhere, i'd really like to see required "comparative religion" courses... maybe starting around the 6th grade... in such a class you could study the religions of the world and how they deal with various philosophical questions, and also how various philosophers throughout history have dealt with the same questions... that way when it is brought up in science class that evolution is just one scientific theory about how we got here but there are also many belief systems out there from hindu to catholic that have different ideas, there would be another class where these kind of things could be discussed and compared in more depth
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08-24-2005, 10:34 AM | #727 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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here's a bit more info... see this map:
the area of greenland where the crash occured is very far south, and near the shoreline... as such it has a much higher annual precipitation rate than the much more northerly regions of greenland where core samples tend to be taken deep in antarctica precipitation is some of the lowest in the entire world... it is simply much too cold to snow all that much... this is why the ice core samples are more reliable from there... and more impressive in the amount of time they cover your point does bring up a very valid point about scientific theories however... all factors must be taken into account to insure accuracy of interpretations... time via ice core, for example, is not just about depth... it is also about annual precipitation in a given area where the core is taken... along with nearby cores taken to insure consistancy in the case of antarctica... the sheer amount of ice, considering yearly precipitation in that region alone (putting aside any core interpretations), makes a 6 or even 10 thousand year "history of the world" very hard to theorize though obviously you could just say "god made it that way 6,000 years ago" ... but if you take that route basically "anything goes" and any observation or deductions are essentially meaningless
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
08-24-2005, 05:19 PM | #728 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Ab-so-LUTELY!!!!!!! You and I AGREE!!!!! I TOTALLY agree with you!!! Like TOTALLY, man!!! However, I think we're probably thinking about different folk - when you say "religious folk", you're probably thinking of creationists. You're quite wrong, in my case at least, so please modify your statement to "many religious folk" or "some religious folk" if you care about truth and accuracy When I read your statement and totally agree with it, the group of people I have in mind for "religious folk" are those who fervently and religiously believe - without ANY scientific proof - that macro evolution (particle to people) definitely took place (the closest they get to proof are that micro evolutionary changes took place, but that's no big deal!). Talk about some irrational zealots! Sheesh! Exactly like some hard-core, irrational creationists, these hard-core, irrational evolutionists react with a religious fervor when their pet unproveable belief is attacked. (And because I'm reasonable and openminded and care about truth, I still think it should be modified with "many" or "some", because I know not all evolution believers are that way.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:19 PM | #729 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Ab-so-LUTELY!!!!!!! You and I AGREE!!!!! I TOTALLY agree with you!!! Like TOTALLY, man!!! However, I think we're probably thinking about different folk - when you say "religious folk", you're probably thinking of creationists. You're quite wrong, in my case at least, so please modify your statement to "many religious folk" or "some religious folk" if you care about truth and accuracy When I read your statement and totally agree with it, the group of people I have in mind for "religious folk" are those who fervently and religiously believe - without ANY scientific proof - that macro evolution (particle to people) definitely took place (the closest they get to proof are that micro evolutionary changes took place, but that's no big deal!). Talk about some irrational zealots! Sheesh! Exactly like some hard-core, irrational creationists, these hard-core, irrational evolutionists react with a religious fervor when their pet unproveable belief is attacked. (And because I'm reasonable and openminded and care about truth, I still think it should be modified with "many" or "some", because I know not all evolution believers are that way.)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:28 PM | #730 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
He didn't mean to say, "not all the facts are in on evolution, so creationists don't want it treated the way all other scientific subjects are." He's saying that evolution is treated differently by creationists than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 05:28 PM | #731 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
He didn't mean to say, "not all the facts are in on evolution, so creationists don't want it treated the way all other scientific subjects are." He's saying that evolution is treated differently by creationists than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 05:32 PM | #732 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This is what I think is going on in Kansas: True Scientists - We're getting tired of the group of evolutionary scientists that are trying to redefine science as we've known it for centuries, and trying to give their pet belief system a free pass from normal scientific evidentiary rules. We want to give our students the whole truth about everything, even this theory, and let them think about it themselves. Let's put everything on the table - warts and all! - and let free scientific inquiry flow unfettered.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:32 PM | #733 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
This is what I think is going on in Kansas: True Scientists - We're getting tired of the group of evolutionary scientists that are trying to redefine science as we've known it for centuries, and trying to give their pet belief system a free pass from normal scientific evidentiary rules. We want to give our students the whole truth about everything, even this theory, and let them think about it themselves. Let's put everything on the table - warts and all! - and let free scientific inquiry flow unfettered.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:40 PM | #734 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
My point is that there is another group that is just as "religious" as the people that he calls "religious" - and that group is the evolutionists that hold to their belief in macro-evolution as absolutely true. They are religious in exactly the same way, and exactly the same sense, as the people IRex was referring to. So while I realize he is saying (to put it in your words) that "evolution is treated differently by creationists than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are", I am saying that evolution is treated differently by EVOLUTIONISTS than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are. Look around you at the level and type of hysterical rhetoric generated by these evolutionists (again, I want to stress that it's not by any means ALL evolutionists). Look at the name-calling! It's absolutely amazing to me. After all, the theories of YECs also call into doubt the work of astronomers - yet are they throwing hissy fits? No! Why is that, Lief? Why do you think? I think it's because the hard-core evolutionists' BELIEFS are being threatened - not their theories, but rather their BELIEF that macro evolution took place. Their response is absolutely typical of a person whose firmly held and cherished, but unproven and unproveable, belief is being threatened.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:40 PM | #735 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
My point is that there is another group that is just as "religious" as the people that he calls "religious" - and that group is the evolutionists that hold to their belief in macro-evolution as absolutely true. They are religious in exactly the same way, and exactly the same sense, as the people IRex was referring to. So while I realize he is saying (to put it in your words) that "evolution is treated differently by creationists than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are", I am saying that evolution is treated differently by EVOLUTIONISTS than other subjects that have a similar amount of evidence backing them are. Look around you at the level and type of hysterical rhetoric generated by these evolutionists (again, I want to stress that it's not by any means ALL evolutionists). Look at the name-calling! It's absolutely amazing to me. After all, the theories of YECs also call into doubt the work of astronomers - yet are they throwing hissy fits? No! Why is that, Lief? Why do you think? I think it's because the hard-core evolutionists' BELIEFS are being threatened - not their theories, but rather their BELIEF that macro evolution took place. Their response is absolutely typical of a person whose firmly held and cherished, but unproven and unproveable, belief is being threatened.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:45 PM | #736 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Quote:
We (at least those that I agree with) are NOT picking solely on evolution! What we ARE doing is trying to point out, and then revoke, its priviledged (and unscientific) position, and put it back on the same level as the other fields, where it should be.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:45 PM | #737 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Quote:
We (at least those that I agree with) are NOT picking solely on evolution! What we ARE doing is trying to point out, and then revoke, its priviledged (and unscientific) position, and put it back on the same level as the other fields, where it should be.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2005, 05:51 PM | #738 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 05:51 PM | #739 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 06:19 PM | #740 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And here's something that I think is pretty amusing -
You evolutionists will never - NEVER - know if you were right You'll know if the creationists were right, tho! We creationists will know if we were right, but we'll never find out if we were wrong!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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