Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Elfhelm]

I have made no ad hominum arguments. When I speak of the behavior and expressions of religious zealots, if anything, I might be raising a straw man. To refute it by reference to yourself is to accept the label. I certainly did not specifically target any one person. And I wouldn't.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It seems to me that there is a logical sequence from what you said, namely, "this topic...exists solely to give religious zealots an opportunity to justify their prejudices", which leads to the conclusion that those who disagree with you on this matter are all religious zealots, but I'll drop it.

Could you clarify exactly what you meant by the comment about killing artistic people?

Originally Posted by Liefy

I think that this is largely because non-religious people have worldviews which say homosexuality is ethically okay.

I think perhaps it would be best to modify this statement by saying that non-religious people "often" have worldviews...etc etc.

[GreyMouser]

Just like to point out that Communist regimes, non-religious by definition, have been very intolerant of homosexuality.

[Nerdanel]

Helsinki Pride 2006, the parade July 1st.

There was one homophobic demonstration, two guys with 'I <3 Jesus' shirts and a placard with a Biblical text (Leviticus 18:22). People in the parade reacted differently, but I think the worst thing to do is to meet hate with hate.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by GreyMouser

Just like to point out that Communist regimes, non-religious by definition, have been very intolerant of homosexuality.

There you go.

How many were there in the Pride Parade, Nerdanel?

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

There you go.

How many were there in the Pride Parade, Nerdanel?

About one thousand persons.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

And only two protestors? That's pretty impressive. At a Walk for Life, we had 15,000 protestors, and like 500 counter-protestors ("infantophobic" demonstration, I guess you could say ). A much higher CP to Protestor ratio.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

It seems to me that there is a logical sequence from what you said, namely, "this topic...exists solely to give religious zealots an opportunity to justify their prejudices", which leads to the conclusion that those who disagree with you on this matter are all religious zealots, but I'll drop it.

Could you clarify exactly what you meant by the comment about killing artistic people?

Artists think differently. They are not wired to simply agree with the powers that be. They get contrary. They ask difficult questions. It's easier just to kill them, after a while. It's easier for them to survive if they work in code. The link between deviant sexuality and artists is pretty obvious. If they don't simply accept the shape of the world based on authority, they will certainly not accept the use of their bodies on authority. And so, they are sympathetic to deviants. And so, the arts attract deviants. In fact, the muses at times reward deviation. And they extract a high price, usually ignominy.

And this all works out great for the powers that be because they can purge the artists, the questioners, the difficult intellectuals, by exposing them either as gay people or as friends of gay people, and so discredit their work, or even, as we have seen historically, use this as the justification for burning them at the stake. That way they don't have to acknowledge the difficult questions, the intellect behind criticism of powermongerer's behavior. They simply declare them gay and kill them, with all sorts of religious hoopla thrown in to apease the fools.

Try being gay, or bi, and a poet. Try growing up with the nickname "Fairy". It's very clear to those who experience it. It's not a Socratic game of questions, trying to trick people into logical fallacies. This is about growing up in a homophobic culture and just being different.

And it is condoned and encouraged by the religious leaders. You'd understand if you were ever on the receiving end.

[GreyMouser]

Hmmm....I think that in all societies, artists- particularly performing artists- have been connected with 'deviant' sexuality, disruption, and opposition to the established order.

They have been opposed by all those who attempt to set up systems based on unitary theories of society- Puritans and Platonists, Communists and Confucians.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

lots to read through during my absentia...and to be honest i cant be bothered to read through it all, so lets just go with one simple phrase:

Tolerance is NOT Acceptance

i have found this during my 20 years of life

[Butterbeer]

yeah, i know...threads are like inviting swimming pools on hot days under the bubbly influence ... just jump on in and throw out a line ... it's called life.

really good to see ya LCOU

you up for some rpging, fast and loose style btw?

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Nerdanel

Helsinki Pride 2006, the parade July 1st.

There was one homophobic demonstration, two guys with 'I <3 Jesus' shirts and a placard with a Biblical text (Leviticus 18:22). People in the parade reacted differently, but I think the worst thing to do is to meet hate with hate.

Stockholm Pride 2006 is between 31 July-6 August (this week). The parade will be held on the 5th (Saturday). Will see it this year too.

I guess you only saw two persons demonstrate. Surely there must have been more demonstrators than that during the entire time the parade was going on.

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

Tolerance is NOT Acceptance

Spot on.

[Nerdanel]

Actually, Jon, no, it seems there weren't. You know.. Finns are different from Swedes. We tend to keep out anger and hate inside. :/

[Jonathan]

Guess that has both its advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage - a calm parade?

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Nerdanel

Actually, Jon, no, it seems there weren't. You know.. Finns are different from Swedes. We tend to keep out anger and hate inside. :/

Lot of good it does you there! I like to toss mine around alot...kind of wear it out.....

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Guess that has both its advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage - a calm parade?

Indeed, a calm and happy parade. I hope it works well in Stockholm aswell.. And I hope I'll be there some year soon.

[inked]

Ah, zealots. They are only found in opposition to homosexuality, no?

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/262006b.asp

"Canadian Professor Fined for Stating Opposition to Homosexuality

By Jim Brown
July 26, 2006

(AgapePress) - A Canadian professor has been fined two weeks pay by a Nova Scotia university for telling a student that homosexuality is an unnatural lifestyle. But despite the disciplinary measures imposed against the educator, he says he refuses to succumb to the administration's "intimidation."

Cape Breton University (CBU) fined veteran history professor David Mullan $2,100 in response to two human rights complaints filed by a homosexual student who coordinates the campus' Sexual Diversity Office. The student took umbrage at two letters the professor had written to his former Anglican bishop two years ago.

The letters posted on Mullan's website criticized the bishop and the Anglican Church of Canada for their acceptance of homosexual "marriage." CBU student Shane Wallis was offended by the content of the professor's letters and lodged a formal human rights complaint with the university.

After the first complaint was lodged, Mullan responded to an unsolicited e-mail from Wallis, responding to the charge of a human rights offense and stating that "homosexuality is a repudiation of nature and the apotheosis of unbridled desire." The student then filed another complaint, and CBU officials decided to punish the professor.

Mullan claims CBU has "declared war on free speech." University officials "are trying to send a message about their seriousness concerning this harassment and discrimination policy," he says, "and I do believe the administration wants to use me 'pour encourages les autres' (to encourage the others) to toe the line. Well, it's an outrage, and I am grieving it."

The history scholar suggests that the same pro-homosexual attitude behind the university's actions seems to be at work throughout his country. He says giving protected status to homosexuals is a "national obsession" in Canada.

"I think a lot of the human rights material and also the substance of many cases in this country, that substance does seem to revolve around the 'homosex' business," Mullan observes. "And there have been many cases across the country," he adds, "both in institutional and provincial human rights tribunals, and also a number of cases going to provincial Supreme Courts and even to the Supreme Court of Canada."

Despite being punished by Cape Breton University officials, Professor Mullan says he does not intend to stop speaking his mind. The school's Faculty Association, which is recognized as a union, is filing a grievance on his behalf."

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/262006b.asp

--Jim Brown, a regular contributor to AgapePress, is a reporter for American Family Radio News, which can be heard online.

So, does this mean that some speech is more free than other speech in Canada? It would appear so. Watch out for the mind police, they are out there and they are watching you!

Rather Orwellian, that!

[inked]

And, what's really out at the OUTGAMES ?

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...cb06cc62c3&p=1

Yep, you got it! Intolerance.


And in Canada, too!

[The Gaffer]

Is this the best you can do?

[inked]

Nah, Gaffer, I got the homosexual agenda for marriage right here, too!






Beyond Same-Sex Marriage: A New Strategic Vision For All Our Families and Relationships

Executive Summary (click here to read the full statement)

The time has come to reframe the narrow terms of the marriage debate in the United States. Conservatives are seeking to enshrine discrimination in the U.S. Constitution through the Federal Marriage Amendment. But their opposition to same-sex marriage is only one part of a broader pro-marriage, “family values” agenda that includes abstinence-only sex education, stringent divorce laws, coercive marriage promotion policies directed toward women on welfare, and attacks on reproductive freedom. Moreover, a thirty-year political assault on the social safety net has left households with more burdens and constraints and fewer resources.

Meanwhile, the LGBT movement has recently focused on marriage equality as a stand-alone issue. While this strategy may secure rights and benefits for some LGBT families, it has left us isolated and vulnerable to a virulent backlash. We must respond to the full scope of the conservative marriage agenda by building alliances across issues and constituencies. Our strategies must be visionary, creative, and practical to counter the right's powerful and effective use of marriage as a “wedge” issue that pits one group against another. The struggle for marriage rights should be part of a larger effort to strengthen the stability and security of diverse households and families. To that end, we advocate:

Ø Legal recognition for a wide range of relationships, households and families – regardless of kinship or conjugal status.

Ø Access for all, regardless of marital or citizenship status, to vital government support programs including but not limited to health care, housing, Social Security and pension plans, disaster recovery assistance, unemployment insurance and welfare assistance.

Ø Separation of church and state in all matters, including regulation and recognition of relationships, households and families.

Ø Freedom from state regulation of our sexual lives and gender choices, identities and expression.

Marriage is not the only worthy form of family or relationship, and it should not be legally and economically privileged above all others. A majority of people – whatever their sexual and gender identities – do not live in traditional nuclear families. They stand to gain from alternative forms of household recognition beyond one-size-fits-all marriage. For example:

· Single parent households

· Senior citizens living together and serving as each other’s caregivers (think Golden Girls)

· Blended and extended families

· Children being raised in multiple households or by unmarried parents

· Adult children living with and caring for their parents

· Senior citizens who are the primary caregivers to their grandchildren or other relatives

· Close friends or siblings living in non-conjugal relationships and serving as each other’s primary support and caregivers

· Households in which there is more than one conjugal partner

· Care-giving relationships that provide support to those living with extended illness such as HIV/AIDS.

The current debate over marriage, same-sex and otherwise, ignores the needs and desires of so many in a nation where household diversity is the demographic norm. We seek to reframe this debate. Our call speaks to the widespread hunger for authentic and just community in ways that are both pragmatic and visionary. It follows in the best tradition of the progressive LGBT movement, which invented alternative legal statuses such as domestic partnership and reciprocal beneficiary. We seek to build on these historic accomplishments by continuing to diversify and democratize partnership and household recognition. We advocate the expansion of existing legal statuses, social services and benefits to support the needs of all our households.

We call on colleagues working in various social justice movements and campaigns to read the full-text of our statement “Beyond Same-Sex Marriage: A New Strategic Vision,” and to join us in our call for government support of all our households.

http://www.afa.net/websites/beyondmarriage.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------

Look carefully and you'll find the next step is to not "regard the number of partners". Agenda? What agenda?