12-02-2006, 03:51 AM | #701 | |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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And why can't Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammad all be prophets of one god? And why is there always only one god? I have met a few mortals that posess god like qualities. In olden times, before monothesim, they would have been worshiped. |
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12-02-2006, 01:44 PM | #702 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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Background: On one side you have the largest and most advanced empire that part of the world ever has seen. It's been through some heavy social and political changes in the past 100 years. Where you once had a constantly squabbling and unstable senate you now have an "all-powerful" emperor (though offcially still only "priceps"). The empire spreads greco-roman culture, building cities (pòlises) and spreading greek culture. On the other you have rural areas, where the majority of the populaion is confined. Not only do you get a clash between the different forms of civilisation, but also a clash between ways of understanding the world - the formal and tradition-bound polytheism of the Greek and Roman world, and the more personal and strictly moral religion of the jews - both, I'm guessing, with a lot dissatisified adherents, as both had become more a formality for the majority of people than a true beliefsystem. The Levant became a pretty central area (geographically), between the greco-roman world in the north-west, the (partly greco-) egyptian culture in the south-west, and the Parthian empire which had a ressurection of Persian culture to the east. Becoming a part of the Roman empire opens for lots of cultural influences from the outside world, trade and city-building makes for a closer contact between the various culture on a much wider scale than earlier. Roads and trade-ships also makes it much easier for people, and thus ideas, to spread to the various parts of the empire. Along comes Jesus - perhaps partly inspired by greek and eastern thoughts but definitely with his own twists - who manages to use dissatisfaction with both the political situation (the area having recently been subjucated by the Roman empire) and the religious (people still being close to their religion, but not happy with the current leadership, and the gentiles having no close relationship with their religion at all) to gather followers around him. He uses old prophecies and the theory of himself as the son of God to sement his teachings. As the teachings and rumours of his claimed divinity spread, stories of miraculous feats appear - probably encouraged by his followers, and either rejected or dismissed as black magic by the jewish leaders. But Jesus is too charismatic and their methods aren't effective enough, so they appeal to the Roman authorities to intervene. The Roman procurator, not wanting to interfere with local religious disputes but neither wanting to upset the deals he's made with the religious leaders, decides to have Jesus executed as a rebel. But how can a Roman procurator be more powerful than God's own Son? Impossible. But neither are the Christians strong enough to resist and protect Jesus from the Roman authorities. Some of those closest to Jesus come up with the idea that this was all a part of the plan (Jesus himself probaby alluded to this when he understood how fragile his position was), and that Jesus didn't 'die' - he conquered death! Truth mingles with metaphors and fiction; the idea that he rose from the dead needs some sort of confirmation, and the apostles - knowing in their hearts that he had risen, feeling his presence - might not have seen him that accurately, but he talked to them. 30 years later they can describe how he looked and what he said in detail. The stories vary, according to what the different apostles believe to be the central points in Jesus' teachings. Many possibilities here, of course. The histories of Alexander the Great and the top-politicians in the classic greek area was followed by the greatest politicians, writers and minds of those times. The life of Jesus was followed by his closest friends, "common people" and jewish opposition in a pretty rural area with low literacy - but with long and proud traditions of religious thought. There were already rumours while Jesus was alive, and 30 years is quite enough time to give the stories flesh (more imaginative stories appear later, but as they are sometimes contrary to those already established there are lots of disputes on what really happened). Eyewitness who claim to have seen the miracles appear (just as there are people telling stories of alien abductions, telepathy, spells (see f.ex. Wicca) and miraculous events today). The most widespread ones are written down. Got to run again, hope this clarifies some issues. I'll see if I can answer your points later, but I'll have to get started on exam-stuff myself. Won't have much time for this thread before the 14th, I suspect.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 12-02-2006 at 01:49 PM. |
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12-02-2006, 05:27 PM | #703 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-02-2006, 06:00 PM | #704 | |
Elf Lord
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I'll respond, Falagar, after you've finished your response. I realize you have exams, and so do I, which is part of the reason for my holding back from responding now! So take your time .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-02-2006, 06:02 PM | #705 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Hmm? What exactly does that have to do with my reference to Islam as Unitarian?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-02-2006, 06:13 PM | #706 |
Elf Lord
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Sorry, I've always been under the impression that Unitarians try to say all religions are acceptable and really the same religion when it comes down to the nuts and bolts. If Unitarianism is focused on one God though, then my point there was rather irrelevant.
Do you know of other religions Muslims accept as paths to God, aside from Judaism and Christianity?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-02-2006, 06:41 PM | #707 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Unitarianism actually means the belief in one God in one Person, as opposed to Trinitarianism. The Unitarian Denomination joined with the Universalist denomination a while back to create the Unitarian Universalists; I imagine this is what you are thinking re: all religions are acceptable, though technically this teaching is known as indifferentism, and may be found in nearly any religious group.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-02-2006, 06:51 PM | #708 | |
Elven Warrior
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Religions like Bahai and Sikhism that recognise One God are rejected because they arose after the Koran was propogated- I think that's why strict Sunni Salafists regard Shiites as apostates, because they accept the Imams as prophetic successors to Mohammed. |
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12-02-2006, 06:54 PM | #709 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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I always thought of Unitarianism as "one faith" rather than "one god."
Ah, organized religion is annoying anyway. |
12-02-2006, 07:03 PM | #710 |
Elven Warrior
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About Talmudic references to Jesus, found this:
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud Written from a Jewish perspective. Like anything to do with the Jews, there's a lot of stuff out there written by nutcases, cultists, racists and people with their own axe to grind, so it's hard to judge how reliable anything is. |
12-02-2006, 08:05 PM | #711 | |||
Elf Lord
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I'll just cite the introduction of the article. I read the whole thing, GrayMouser, and it was interesting. A well-constructed argument. I can't accept it as conclusive at all on the matter, of course, as it's an argument rather than an unbiased explanation of both sides. Hence, it doesn't cite all the professionals who disagree with it or go into as much depth on their positions. There is only one paragraph in the parts after he discusses the quotations in which he gives some summaries of opposing views, without getting into the evidence or reasons for those views. Then he spends all the rest of the article working to debunk those views.
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Meanwhile, I've got a couple more sources who back the connection between the Talmud and Jesus. Quote:
In his words, "The Jewish Talmud refers to Jesus in derogatory ways." (p. 184) Here's a quote also from Professor M. Wilcox, who wrote the following in an article that appeared in a scholarly reference work. "The Jewish traditional literature, although it mentions Jesus only quite sparingly (and must in any case be used with caution), supports the gospel claim that he was a healer and miracle-worker, even though it ascribes these activities to sorcery. In addition, it preserves the recollection that he was a teacher, and that he had disciples (five of them), and that ata least in the earlier Rabbinic period not all of the sages had finally made up their minds that he was a 'heretic' or a 'deceiver.'" Here's an additional quote from the About Judaism website: Quote:
This seems to undermine problems such as the time gaps that the other article emphasized as being important discrepancies. But I haven't yet got a counter argument to the one you posted, GrayMouser, that goes into as much depth as he does. It's got to have been convenient that that article is the first one that turns up if you type down "Jesus" and "Talmud," on Google .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-02-2006 at 08:30 PM. |
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12-06-2006, 07:59 AM | #712 | |
Elven Warrior
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"I didn't say it... it was this other guy..." |
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12-10-2006, 04:46 PM | #713 |
Elf Lord
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Lol.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-10-2006 at 04:49 PM. |
12-10-2006, 04:48 PM | #714 | |||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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There is more evidence for this in Numbers 22:2-6. Quote:
It is also well worth noting that the Lord had already given Moab and Midian warning that their planned attack was against his will and would only bring about their destruction, if they proceeded. In full view of "all the princes of Moab," Balaam spoke the words of the Lord: Quote:
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And as for doctors sinning when they do happen to work against a plague that God sent- I think it's very clear that they are working out of compassion and without understanding of what's going on. God is very clear in the New Testament that he is much more merciful in cases where people don't know that they're sinning. Quote:
God exacted justice with regard to Israel and the surrounding nations, bringing a sharp and deserved penalty to the crimes committed. Quote:
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Now, if you are living with a conquering nation that you know has destroyed your parents and their people, I suspect that you'd also be highly inclined to check out exactly what practices your parents and their people were engaged in. That would be a big temptation, because those are the people you come from. Further, if you're a man and so are going to become leader of a household, you might be able to lead your wife and your children astray. You also might very likely want revenge. The Moabite and Midianite children had a wicked background. They had a dark heritage. Remember also that the Old Testament talks about a time when Israel opposed the will of the Lord and let the children live. The consequence was predictable and disastrous- those people led Israel astray. Here was the command of the Lord concerning the Canaanites. Quote:
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Even if they were being treated wrongly by all their relations being killed off, they themselves were taken care of rather than left to starve. So we can drop them out of the argument altogether, can't we, and just focus on the killings of their relations, seeing whether that was right or wrong? Because your argument now is that it's because of those wrongs that the young women were wronged, which means that you're not talking about any specific wrongs against the women themselves. Quote:
The children would have wanted revenge. The Lord said that they would take up the sins of their parents if left alive, and later in the scripture we see the consequences of being merciful with these people. Those consequences are exactly what the Lord predicted and were a reason for the destruction of so many. Also, I would argue that God has the right to destroy people if he wants. He made people, so he has the right to kill them again. God killing children, or authorizing the destruction of children, is not the same as humans doing it. God has a great deal more knowledge, and sufficient knowledge to act in this way in perfect justice. Humans don't have that ability. The only times when Israel kills children are when God tells them to. God generally detests the killing of children and considers it a terrible sin: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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12-18-2006, 01:32 PM | #715 |
Elf Lord
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I've got an idea about how the Tower of Babel languages break-up might have occurred. Those who don't believe in the Tower of Babel account from scripture don't need to reply, but for those who do, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.
It could, of course, have been simply a miracle. However, I have a non-miraculous possibility to suggest. In the US right now, cops from town to town in Virginia aren't able to communicate with one another or work with one another. This is because, to make their work easier and more efficient, they developed little code words to describe different activities. They developed these words into a virtual language, and police forces in other towns have developed their own languages too, and they use some of the same words as the other people's code languages. However, those words don't always mean the same thing from one police force to the other, so when they try to work jointly, often their operations have trouble and sometimes break down. Because of this, the code words have only recently been banned altogether in Virginia. I wonder if something similar might have happened with the Tower of Babel. Different groups of laborers would probably have been working steadily at different job tasks and it's very likely they would have developed their own words or catch-phrases for their parts of construction. Expressions and such to simplify talking and give quick instructions could easily have cropped up. These might have been developing in all the groups, much like the code words in the Virginia police forces, and the same as with those Virginia police forces, could have ended up resulting in a number of errors. That would have led to immense frustration. I just wonder if this might have been how the language break-up occurred.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-23-2006, 05:55 PM | #716 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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If there are any of my points you think I'm especially far out on or if you want my opinion on something I'll answer those, but the discussion as it has evolved has IMO become much too entangled in speculations (and a few of my points seems to have been a bit rushed) to continue - either way I won't have time to make any decent posts again in a while, by which time everyone's probably lost interest.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 12-23-2006 at 06:08 PM. |
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02-05-2007, 03:10 PM | #717 |
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Interesting theory Lief...
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02-09-2007, 10:40 AM | #718 |
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SisAunt, this is the reply:
Well, I'm not even Catholic (I'm Orthodox), but I thought Vatican II was pretty darned per-historically liberal, their main intention being to try and "popularize" theology and mass....but you know, in the end, it's not how "comfortable" and "up-to-date" a church is that people seek. Now, what I "thought" when Vatican II happened, I can't tell you...I was born in '87.
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02-10-2007, 06:24 PM | #719 |
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More like, "I am Orthodox, and therefore I think the Second Vatican Council was pretty liberal".
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02-11-2007, 12:34 AM | #720 | ||||||||||||||
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From Homosexual marriage II
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It's true, we don't have centralised leadership. I like that. This gives the Anglican church to have a quite significant group of liberal Anglicans. Of course, there is a very significant group of conservative Anglicans too. We also don't have the parameters you make reference too, I know what you mean, and I don't think the same thing exists within the Anglican church. Quote:
We don't agree on what constitutes murder, and how a murderer should be punished, but we do agree that it is wrong. The subjective aspects would be the aspects that one group or individual believes to be wrong for logical reasons, for example, because it's against their religion, but other groups do not believe to be wrong (also for good reason). Obviously my own definition falls into the subjective category, but that's the gist of what I believe about rightness and wrongness. Quote:
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No, that's all I was going to write. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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