Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Any thoughts from the anti-war protesters on all the gas masks and chemical weapon antidotes that have been found in Iraq? Or the ricine production documents? Does anyone still think that we were dead wrong about the WMDs Iraq is stated to have? And the documents and personell links to Al'Qaeda?

And if you do think these aren't all lies, do you not think that their having WMDs justifies attack?

Most anti-war people acknowledged that Saddam had WMD (biological and chemical, anyway) ; they simply argued that

a) weapons inspectors would find them (wrong, I think)

b) Saddam wouldn't have a chance to use them - this is more problematic; he certainly wouldn't have used them against his neighbors, but he might have used them on his own people(again) to protect himself against an uprising. And he certainly would have been happy to indulge in a little nuclear blackmail, given the chance - of course that means getting a nuke AND a delivery system.

As for the ricin, documents, and links to Al'Qaeda- as far as I can tell, all these are coming from the enclave in North- Eastern Iaq controlled by the Al-Ansar group. This area is surrounded on three sides by Kurdish-controlled terrritory, and is contiguous with Iran. In short, it's been out of Saddam's control for years.

It seems to me that the Iranians, in spite of their denials, have allowed Al- Qaida militants to pass through Iran, but are too wary to allow them to stay- that nice little patch of territory nominally part of Iraq makes a convenient location.

Earlier reports said that many of the Al-Ansar fighters slipped back over the border to Iran, and the Iranians allowed them to move back and forth freely.

(I'm sure nobody's seriously suggesting that the Iranians are helping Saddam develop chemical or biological weapons.)

So the smoking gun of either WMD or Saddam/bin Laden connections has yet to be found. I'm sure that WMD will be, Al-Qaida links I doubt very much.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
More interesting stuff turning up....

Kinda Ironic how the UN was in there a month ago and 9 other times and didn't find any of this stuff, I bet it's because the inspectors were being led around the facility and weren't given free reign to inspect it fully...

U.S. troops found thousands of boxes of white powder, nerve agent antidote and Arabic documents on how to engage in chemical warfare at a military factory south of Baghdad, U.S. officers said Friday. But a senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be traditional military explosives, not an ingredient for weapons of mass destruction.

“INITIAL REPORTS are that the material is probably just explosives, but we’re still going through the place,” the official
told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

http://msnbc.com/news/895392.asp


This maybe outdated by the time it gets up, but so far, nope.
I'm sure it's out there, though

[wahine]

Just a sort-a related thing, you know how it's now "freedom" fries and toast? Are there "freedom" ticklers now too?

Sorry--it's all really ridiculous...*sigh*

*looks for coconuts*

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by wahine
Just a sort-a related thing, you know how it's now "freedom" fries and toast? Are there "freedom" ticklers now too?

yes. and freedom kisses. those are the long wet patriotic kind.

[Tanoliel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
They are of the breed where they don't do something until something happens, then again some don't even want that...

The protests before the war began, to try and prevent it, were HUGE. Or was that not what you meant? People were protesting before the war was declared; but it's silly to protest if no one's talking about war.
"Yay, economy, yay, schools, yay..."
"Let's protest the war!"
"What war?"
"Nevermind!"

I'm kind of assuming you meant something else by that though...


tano

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Tanoliel
The protests before the war began, to try and prevent it, were HUGE. Or was that not what you meant? People were protesting before the war was declared; but it's silly to protest if no one's talking about war.
"Yay, economy, yay, schools, yay..."
"Let's protest the war!"
"What war?"
"Nevermind!"

I'm kind of assuming you meant somhing else by that though...

He was referring to how people don't want to take care of threats until they have done something or become so large that it makes it more difficult to deal with - such as 9/11 or Hitler prior to World War II. There was also recently a poll where people actually said that if a country was preparing to attack us with nuclear bombs - we would still not be warranted in attacking.

[jerseydevil]

Well - we're in Baghdad now. So much for the Iraqi's Information Ministers comments that we were "bogged down in the desert and not within 100 miles of Baghdad." I hope the Iraqis really didn't believe their government's propaganda, otherwise they've woken up to a BIG surprise.

[Lief Erikson]

Gray Mouser, are you saying that the weapon production papers we've found are evidence that the Kurds or Iranians are in connection with Al'Qaeda and are developing WMDs?

And the gas masks and chemical/biological weapon antidotes were found on enemy troops in battle. So are you saying that the Kurds/Iranians and Saddam Hussein have been developing WMDs?

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well - we're in Baghdad now. So much for the Iraqi's Information Ministers comments that we were "bogged down in the desert and not within 100 miles of Baghdad." I hope the Iraqis really didn't believe their government's propaganda, otherwise they've woken up to a BIG surprise.

Those that believed the propaganda probably aren't completely out of their lack of knowledge. The Iraqi regime is claiming to still have complete control of that airport (Naturally), but it won't be long before everyone knows. Our troops have also already made a few reconnaisance missions out into other parts of Baghdad.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Those that believed the propaganda probably aren't completely out of their lack of knowledge. The Iraqi regime is claiming to still have complete control of that airport (Naturally), but it won't be long before everyone knows.

Yes the joke is that the Iraqi ministry of information is saying that the coalition forces have been wiped out at the airport and arent even close to Bagdad. And that the cubs are about to win the world series....

(sorry to the non-americans on here. just had to share that joke. gave me a huge laugh this morning)

[Tanoliel]

Hah....

Meself, I be rooting for my home team--go Mariners!

Right...uh...back on topic...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by wahine
Are there "freedom" ticklers now too?

Yes and you know where to find me

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Gray Mouser, are you saying that the weapon production papers we've found are evidence that the Kurds or Iranians are in connection with Al'Qaeda and are developing WMDs?

And the gas masks and chemical/biological weapon antidotes were found on enemy troops in battle. So are you saying that the Kurds/Iranians and Saddam Hussein have been developing WMDs?

I haven't heard of any weapons production papers being found as yet- where did you see it? or could you post it, or the link- I'd like to check it out.

Certainly, gas masks and antidotes are strong indications that you think that somebody is going to use CBW weapons - and I seriously doubt that the Iraqis believe their own propaganda that the coalition is going to.

But, no actual WMD. (though, again, I'm sure it's there- it just hasn't been found yet)

As for the Kurds/Iranians developing CBWs; I'll try and clarify as much as I can see of a confusing situation

The area where the weapons were being developed was under the control of Ansar al-Islam (Pillar of Islam), which is a very small group (800-1000 fighters) apparently indigenous to the area- local militant Islamic Kurds, fighting the U.S.-allied PUK, who have been reinforced by Al-Qaeda fighters from other countries.

So when you say "the Kurds", well, this small group of Kurds has been hosting Al-Qaeda fighters.

It is Al-Qaeda who established the laboratories in the al-Ansar enclave (this was in Colin Powell's presentation to the Security Council),and they are the ones who who are developing CBWs -for terror operations, not for the war in Iraq .

And I think they must have been allowed allowed free passage through Iran, in spite of Iranian denials.

As for the Iranians, any WMD they're developing (and they are certainly trying for nukes) they are developing in Iran.


The question then is, do the labs in Kurdistan have any ties to Saddam? This is the part where I'm skeptical.

Is my meaning clear (as mud)?

[Lief Erikson]

Sure, that's more clear now. You're saying a group of Kurds created those documents, financed by and in connection to Al'Qaeda.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Oh yes, I'm sorry but I can't post that article for you. I heard it all over the news two or three days ago, and they showed clips of the documents.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Sure, that's more clear now. You're saying a group of Kurds created those documents, financed by and in connection to Al'Qaeda.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Not exactly, I'm saying a group of Al'Qaeda created those documents ( if you are referring to the documents they found with the ricin ) while living with and co-operating with the al-Ansar Kurds

I doubt the local Kurds have the skills.

[Dúnedain]

They have also found stuff in Southern and Western Iraq now too, so it is starting to open up a bit as well. Also, they did some water testing in the Euphrates River and it shows high concentrations of Cyanide and Mustard Gas. Central Command isn't sure yet where it is coming from. But, imo, seeing concentrations in those two substances, it doesn't matter where the heck it is coming from, it is just another piece of the puzzle....

[jerseydevil]

Well - it seems as if the regime of Hussein is dead, if not Hussein himself. It's not official yet - but at least the media minders didn't show up today for work, no press conference from the "Information" Minister, Iraqi checkpoints have been abandoned, not politcal or Iraqi military to be seen around Baghdad.

People are running through Baghdad pulling down pictures of Hussein, along with looting of the government buildings. People are cheering in the streets. Now I guess soon the next phase will begin - to establish a new government and return law and order (without the torture and brutality).

[BeardofPants]

(The Independent) - We now glimpse the forbidden truths of the invasion of Iraq. A man cuddles the body of his infant daughter; her blood drenches them. A woman in black pursues a tank, her arms outstretched; all seven in her family are dead. An American Marine murders a woman because she happens to be standing next to a man in a uniform. "I'm sorry," he says, "but the chick got in the way."

Covering this in a shroud of respectability has not been easy for George Bush and Tony Blair. Millions now know too much; the crime is all too evident. Tam Dalyell, Father of the House of Commons, a Labour MP for 41 years, says the Prime Minister is a war criminal and should be sent to The Hague. He is serious, because the prima facie case against Blair and Bush is beyond doubt.

In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal rejected German arguments of the "necessity'' for pre-emptive attacks against its neighbours. "To initiate a war of aggression,'' said the tribunal's judgment, "is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.''

To this, the Palestinian writer Ghada Karmi adds, "a deep and unconscious racism that imbues every aspect of Western policy towards Iraq." It is this racism, she says, that has cynically elevated Saddam Hussein from "a petty local chieftain, albeit a brutal and ruthless one in the mould of many before him, [to a figure] demonised beyond reason".

To Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill, the Iraqis, like all Arabs, were "niggers'', against whom poison gas could be used. They were un-people; and they still are. The killing of some 80 villagers near Baghdad last Thursday, of children in markets, of the "chicks who get in the way'' would be in industrial quantities now were it not for the voices of the millions who filled London and other capitals, and the young people who walked out of their schools; they have saved countless lives.

Just as the American invasion of Vietnam was fuelled by racism, in which "gooks'' could be murdered with impunity, so the current atrocity in Iraq is from the same mould. Should you doubt that, turn the news around and examine the double standard. Imagine there are Iraqi tanks in Britain and Iraqi troops laying siege to Birmingham. Absurd? Well, it would not happen here. But the British military is doing that to Basra, a city bigger than Birmingham, firing shoulder-held missiles and dropping cluster bombs on its population, 40 per cent of whom are children. Moreover, "our boys" are denying water to the stricken people of Basra as well as to Umm Qasr, which they have controlled for a week. It is no wonder Blair is furious with the al-Jazeera channel, which has exposed this, and the lie that the people of Basra were rising up on cue for their liberation.

[BeardofPants]

Since 11 September 2001, "our'' propaganda and its unspoken racism has required an imperial distortion of intellect and morality. The Iraqis are not fighting like lions, in defence of their homeland. They are "cowardly'' and subhuman because they use hit-and-run tactics against a hugely powerful invader -- as if they have any choice. This belittling of their bravery and disregard of their humanity, like the disregard of thousands of Afghans recently bombed to death in dusty villages, confronts us with a moral issue as profound as the Western response to that greatest act of terrorism, the wilful atomic bombing of Japan. Have we progressed? In 2003, is it still true that only "our'' lives are of value?

These Anglo-American invasions of weak and largely defenceless nations are meant to demonstrate the kind of world the US is planning to dominate by force, with its procession of worthy and unworthy victims and the establishment of American bases at the gateways of all the main sources of fossil fuels. There is a list now. If Israel has its way, Iran will be next; and Cuba, Libya, Syria and even China had better watch out. North Korea may not be an immediate American target, because its threat of nuclear war has been effective. Ironically, had Iraq kept its nuclear weapons, this invasion probably would not have taken place. That is the lesson for all governments at odds with Bush and Blair: nuclear-arm yourself quickly.

The most forbidden truth is that this demonstrably militarist British government, and the rampant superpower it serves, are the true enemies of our security. In the plethora of opinion polls, the most illuminating was conducted by American Time magazine among a quarter of a million people across Europe. The question was: "Which country poses the greatest danger to world peace in 2003?'' Readers were asked to tick off one of three possibilities: Iraq, North Korea and the United States. Eight per cent viewed Iraq as the most dangerous; North Korea was chosen by 9 per cent. No fewer than 83 per cent voted for the United States, of which, in the eyes of most of humanity, Britain is now but a lethal appendage.

Only successful propaganda, and corrupt journalism, will prevent us understanding this and other truths. Rupert Murdoch has been admirably frank. In lauding Bush and Blair as "heroes'', he said, "there is going to be collateral damage in Iraq. And if you really want to be brutal about it, better we get it done now.'' Every one of his 175 newspapers carries that sinister message, more or less, as does his American television network. The 80 villagers rocketed to death on Thursday are proof of the urgency he describes; other victims in other countries are waiting.

For those journalists who see themselves as honourable truth-tellers, there are difficult choices now: rather like the choice of the young woman at the GCHQ spy centre in Cheltenham who allegedly leaked documents revealing that US officials were trying to blackmail members of the Security Council; rather like the two British soldiers who face court martial because they exercised their right, enshrined by the Nuremberg judges, to refuse to fight in a criminal war that kills civilians.

[Baby-K]

Excellent quote BoP!

[BeardofPants]

For journalists who are not "embedded'' and are deeply troubled by the kind of propaganda that consumes even our language, and who, as James Cameron put it, "write the first draft of history'', similar courage is required. Brave Terry Lloyd of ITN, killed by the 'coalition', demonstrated this. The threats are now not even subtle, such as this from our Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon. "One of the reasons for having journalists [embedded],'' he said, "is to prevent precisely the kind of tragedy that occurred to an ITN crew ... because [Terry Lloyd] was not part of a military organisation. And in those circumstances, we can't look after all those journalists ... So having journalists have the protection of our armed forces is both good for journalism. It's also good for people watching.''

Like a mafia boss explaining the benefits of a protection racket, Hoon is saying: do as you are told or face the consequences. Indeed, Donald Rumsfeld, Hoon's superior in Washington, often quotes Al Capone, the famous Chicago mobster. His favourite: "You will get more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.''

How do we face this threat to all of us? The answer lies, I believe, in understanding the extent of our own power. Patrick Tyler wrote wisely in the New York Times the other day that America faced a "tenacious new adversary'' -- the public. He says we are entering a new bi-polar world with two new superpowers: the Bush/Blair gang on one side, and world opinion on the other, a truly popular force stirring at last and whose consciousness soars by the day. Wasn't it the poet Shelley who, at a time like this, exhorted us to: "Rise like lions after slumber''?