03-21-2011, 09:16 PM | #701 | ||
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
do you have any scientific evidence that the children of homosexual parents (who have grown up with them) have emotionally "very difficult" lives (that isn't due to them living in an environment that is hostile to homosexuals, of course)? if you do, could you please point me to it? the sons and daughters of homosexual parents i've met have always been very balanced, open-minded, happy and heterosexual. but maybe it's different here in finland, or my sample is biased. how about infertile heterosexual people? should they be allowed to marry? if the only reason for a couple to have the right to marry is to contribute biologically to society and make sure the species survives, why not test everyone who wants to marry and make sure they're actually planning to have children? i'm married, and i'm not going to have children. and no, i'm not living in a same-sex relationship. why do i have the right to marry now, but not if my partner would've happened to lack an y-chromosome? i still wouldn't want children. and if procreation is that important (why is it so important that humanity survives, anyway? we're a pretty ugly species, you know.. ), what should happen to all of those homosexual people? should they be forced to procreate? why does it matter if they're married or not, they're not going to contribute any more to your society "biologically" if they're forbidden from having their relationship legally recognized. maybe there should be a homosexuality-tax, since they'd just be parasites on the system anyway.. the fact is, lots of heterosexual people reproduce and don't take care of their children. there are loads and loads of children who need parents. keeping them alive by giving them a safe and loving home would contribute biologically to society, no? and help keeping us humans on the planet (at least for a while longer)? if you actually have data that shows that children raised by parents in a homosexual relationship suffer from it directly, and not just from the close-mindedness of society, i'll rethink it, but i think it's positively evil to keep good possible parents from adopting children who need them just because they don't have different external genitals. 'cause you know, the old assumption that children need a mum and a dad also assumes that people will follow the gender roles society has given them and not just be themselves. oh my, if people start questioning gender roles.. Quote:
that's a bit longer than i planned, but whatever. i'll be back.. EDIT: cross-posted with tessar, who has a lot of good points and puts them more clearly than i do.
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page Last edited by Nerdanel : 03-21-2011 at 09:20 PM. |
||
03-21-2011, 09:29 PM | #702 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
To expound just a bit on that idea of drastic change in society being a bad thing...
You as a woman are allowed to wear jeans and shorts now. It's not considered scandal any more. You can go to college, and it's not considered odd if you want to say that you're as smart as a man. You can go vote. You don't know anyone with a black slave. You drive rather than walk or ride a horse. All of those things involve drastic change in society, either legally or just in the way people view things. |
03-21-2011, 11:09 PM | #703 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
In the final analysis, I simply don't believe in same-sex marriage, and do not support legal recognition of it. That said, I think that scare tactics that same-sex marriage is damaging to society are just silly. If anything, same-sex marriage is an unsurprising follow-up to trends which have merrily been undermining marriage as a social structure. Straight people are doing a perfectly good job destroying marriage by themselves without help from gays. The "think of the children!" arguments, in particularly, are quite bogus. If adoption by same-sex couples should be opposed because the child needs both a maternal and a paternal role model, then so should adoption by singles. Indeed, by the same logic, anyone who for whatever reason finds himself or herself in the position of being a single parent should give up the child for adoption, or else have the child forcibly removed to be placed in an opposite-sex family.
The whole thing is predicated upon the assumption that the alternative for these kids is an mother-and-father family. But come on. You don't see gay ninjas darting in pairs from house to house in suburbia, snatching children from the backyards of opposite-sex couples. These kids are coming from orphanages, or at the very best, foster homes, which as such is an impermanent and thus unstable situation. You might be able to argue that it's better for a child to be raised by an opposite-sex couple than by a same-sex couple, but to argue that it's better for a child to be raised in an orphanage without a family than by a same-sex couple just doesn't make sense.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 03-21-2011 at 11:23 PM. |
03-22-2011, 12:26 AM | #704 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
Quote:
|
|
03-22-2011, 03:46 AM | #705 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Take my own parents. They were dyed-in-the-wool old school Christians. Still are. Presbyterians. My old man used to concur with the views of people like the notorious copper James Anderton, who described gays with HIV as "drowning in a cess pool of their own making". Then it emerged that my Best Man was "on the other bus", and was bringing his male partner to the wedding. They did a waltz around the dance floor that remains one of my favourite ever things ever. Heh. That was 20 years ago and now they are supporters of gay marriage. Here in the UK, we legalised gay marriage a few years ago (under a compromise arrangement - civil partnerships). The sky didn't fall in. The superstitious mumbo-jumbo of the religious argument has been exposed as exactly that. Gay couples can adopt and indeed it is illegal to discriminate against them in the adoption process (causing problems for some religious adoption charities). The only political party that was anti-gay (the Conservatives) has done a 180 degree turn. It's done, and we can get on with life now. Within 10 years I would reckon it will be legalised in some way in most US states. (Although it would be interesting to see the breakdown of that survey by region.) Last edited by The Gaffer : 03-22-2011 at 03:48 AM. |
|
03-22-2011, 05:46 AM | #706 | |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
Quote:
registered same-sex couples have the same rights as everyone else to some extent - apart from really stupid things like it not being an alternative in the registration process to change last names and not having the right to adopt from outside the family (a person can adopt the child of their partner). hopefully we'll see this change with the next parliament. fortunately, same-sex couples are quite happy to show their affection openly (not excessively, but to the same extent that different-sex couples do), persons in key positions in society are coming out, even conservative politicians show their support for gays. so it is changing quite rapidly, which is wonderful. i feel like it's changed even in the time since i came out (just under 10 years): people are more accepting, and it's not a huge deal anymore. unless you happen to live with the religious sects or conservative lutherans somewhere in the forests of western finland, of course. i was lucky to live in a relatively open-minded family so coming out wasn't difficult; but it was still extremely frustrating, since even in my family, there was that weird 'what will the neighbours say & think of your grandmum' mentality. my grandmum still loves me just as much, btw.
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
|
03-22-2011, 08:43 AM | #707 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
What about inheritance, being able to make medical decisions for your partner, able to adopt children? Those are the legal issues of homosexual marriage. Quote:
Personally, I'd like to think people can contribute more to society, even biologically, than just babies.... Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|||
03-22-2011, 11:01 AM | #708 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Oof! You got piled on there
Still, though I agree with your critics, kudos for effort. Just wondering why an Anglican puts in so many references to the Pope and the Catholic Catechism Somebody drifting Romeward?
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 03-22-2011 at 11:04 AM. |
03-23-2011, 01:33 AM | #709 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Revival of the thread reminds me: anyone see this?
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
03-23-2011, 03:50 AM | #710 |
Spammer of the Happy Thread
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 3,512
|
__________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page |
03-23-2011, 05:22 AM | #711 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Speaking of Sodom:
Quote:
Sounds more like Tea-partiers to me.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
03-23-2011, 09:10 AM | #712 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Update:
Quote:
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
06-26-2011, 08:56 PM | #713 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Congratulations New York
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
02-13-2012, 08:22 PM | #714 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
And add Washington State and New Jersey to that (though Washington may face a referendum and Governor Christie of New Jersey says he will veto it- eye on 2016?)
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
02-14-2012, 02:16 PM | #715 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Interesting collection of poll data showing the ongoing enlightening of America's notions of discrimination against homosexuals largely in the areas of gay marriage and gays in the military. Some of these polls go back over a decade and for the most part they have all inched more and more toward support of equal rights for gays. This is a good thing even if it is glacial...
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-09-2012, 05:11 AM | #716 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Not sure how glacial... this graphic surprised me in its progressiveness: it's a representation of gay rights in the different states of the US.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...-united-states Still a long way to go, especially for the southern states. Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-09-2012 at 05:12 AM. |
05-09-2012, 09:49 AM | #717 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Yep, North Carolina...
Oh well, two steps forward, one step back will still get you somewhere eventually.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
05-09-2012, 02:50 PM | #718 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Looks a bit like that.
How does it work if you get married in one state, do the others have to recognise it as legal? |
05-10-2012, 05:28 AM | #719 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
Wiki: Quote:
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
05-10-2012, 05:30 AM | #720 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
And congrats to Obama, for finally coming out and at least saying the right thing.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
marriage | katya | General Messages | 384 | 01-21-2012 12:13 AM |
Homosexual marriage | Rían | General Messages | 999 | 12-06-2006 04:46 PM |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 988 | 02-06-2006 01:33 PM |
Ave Papa - we have a new Pope | MrBishop | General Messages | 133 | 09-26-2005 10:19 AM |
Women, last names and marriage... | afro-elf | General Messages | 55 | 01-09-2003 01:37 AM |