The Official US President Election Thread

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Your vote counts - if you didn't vote and a bunch of other people felt the same way - Bush might win Massachusetts. You said before that the Republican vote didn't matter in New Jersey - because it's a "democratic" state

actually you were the one who brought up the republican/democrat thing in terms of NJ, and i choose to ignore the politics and address things more generally... but i guess facts don't really matter do they?

- now you say your vote doesn't matter becuause it's a democratic state. So which is it? All votes matter in the electoral college process - they just matter at the state level - not the national level.

i was poking fun at your earlier logic... the only vote that matters is the one that pushes it over 50%... it makes absolutely no difference in the outcome if NJ went 51% bush or 99% bush

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You mean calling up and requesting an absentee ballot is that much of a hardship on people?

many people work 12 to 16 hour days and have to care for children when they get home

I don't actually agree with multiple day voting - even though all the candidates seem to support it. Anything can happen that might change your vote - and you can NOT go back and change it.

anyone that fickle should not be allowed to vote

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

actually you were the one who brought up the republican/democrat thing in terms of NJ, and i choose to ignore the politics and address things more generally... but i guess facts don't really matter do they?

No - I never said my vote doesn't count - you did though. That is what I was getting at.

i was poking fun at your earlier logic... the only vote that matters is the one that pushes it over 50%... it makes absolutely no difference in the outcome if NJ went 51% bush or 99% bush

That's like saying that the only vote that matters if it was a national election would be the one that pushes it over 50%. All the rest are just back up. So what's the point? I guess no one's vote matters regardless if it's national or electoral college then.

I think your convoluted logic makes ZERO sense.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

many people work 12 to 16 hour days and have to care for children when they get home

Wow - I wonder how they pay their bills and go grocery shopping and all that. I'm sorry - if a person can't call up to get an absentee ballot - then it's not that important to them. You can use multiple excuses. Hey - why don't we do this. We have people go door to door and have voting that way? We don't want to make it at all "inconvenient" for anyone or where they would actually have to take some steps on their own - otherwise that would be disenfranchisement. While we're at it - why don't we have some one come to these people's houses and wipe their ass too.

[Insidious Rex]

yeah! now THAT would be getting true value out of your tax dollars!

[inked]

I'm just glad that idea didn't come out in time for Kerry to promote it as another government service he'd like to offer if elected!

[Insidious Rex]

well at least he wouldnt give the jobs to his pals who run ass wipping companies outsourced with third world country labor. if someones gonna wipe my ass it better be an american!

[inked]

Better check the boards and agencies he and his wife donate to before you get too sure about that!!!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Wow - I wonder how they pay their bills and go grocery shopping and all that. I'm sorry - if a person can't call up to get an absentee ballot - then it's not that important to them. You can use multiple excuses. Hey - why don't we do this. We have people go door to door and have voting that way? We don't want to make it at all "inconvenient" for anyone or where they would actually have to take some steps on their own - otherwise that would be disenfranchisement. While we're at it - why don't we have some one come to these people's houses and wipe their ass too.

just the kind of answer i expected

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by inked

Better check the boards and agencies he and his wife donate to before you get too sure about that!!!

Not to mention that his cousin is french - but that side of the family is being kept hidden right now.

Pardon my French
Amelia Gentleman
Thursday October 28, 2004
The Guardian

John Kerry seems reluctant to advertise the fact he has a cousin from France - home of those cheese-eating surrender monkeys. But when Brice Lalonde, himself an enterprising politician, went to the US he didn't expect his relatives there to ask him to go into hiding

The villagers of Saint-Briac-sur-Mer are peculiarly obsessed by the American presidential elections. In the Bar de la Mairie at lunchtime, there's a sophisticated dissection of the latest televised debate, which several people have stayed up until four in the morning to watch. Like most people in Europe, the bar's occupants are rooting for John Kerry, but here the support for the Democratic candidate is fervent. "It's looking good," one woman says, fresh off the golf course. "I wouldn't be too confident," another regular responds, frowning into his wine glass. "Everything depends on the swing states."

The source of this unusual fascination with the US campaign lies with the local mayor, an influential environmental campaigner, former government minister and himself a one-time presidential candidate, who sports a Vote John Kerry sticker in the rear window of his Volvo estate. Although the US Democratic campaigners have asked him to keep quiet about it, everyone here knows that Brice Lalonde is Kerry's first cousin. Their mothers are sisters who spent much of their childhood in this Brittany village.

If Saint-Briac-sur-Mer is full of enthusiasm for Kerry, the feeling is not reciprocated. In the current climate of US francophobia, these close French ties are perceived as positively dangerous to the Democrats' campaign, to the extent that Kerry has stopped showing off his French in public, deflects questions about his European roots, and never refers to the family estate in Saint-Briac. The US side of the clan is so desperate to avoid damaging association with the cheese-eating surrender monkeys that when Lalonde travelled to support his cousin at the Democratic convention in August, many of his relatives were horrified.

"One part of the family refused to speak French with me and wanted me to hide," he says. "Having French relatives is not seen as an advantage; I really sensed the anti-French feeling during the convention. It was extremely painful."

Lalonde, 58, has been advised not to talk to the French press in case Republican researchers seize on his opinions as fuel for anti-Kerry campaigning. Bush has already scored points by portraying his rival as excessively concerned about other countries' opinions. Kerry's comment that foreign policy should pass a "global test" has become a key line of attack and the president has said with disdain that "countries like France" should not be allowed to influence US decisions. Hinting at Kerry's continental ties, White House officials spat the worst insult possible at him: "He looks French."

"I don't want the French media to start saying that Kerry is French, or that Kerry is the French candidate. The Republican press could manipulate the French headlines in a way that would be very damaging for Kerry," he says.

This enforced secrecy is a pity, because Lalonde might have some useful advice to offer his cousin. It's true that his presidential bid in 1981 brought him just 3% of the vote - a result that he hopes Kerry will beat - but in his more recent campaign to be elected as mayor he gained a backing of 80%. "To be a successful candidate, you must be careful what you eat and you must be sure to sleep well," he says, as he works his way through a plate of three dozen oysters, bought from the Friday market in the square opposite the mairie.

Lalonde's empire is somewhat smaller than the one his cousin is fighting for. Saint-Briac has only 2,000 permanent residents, although it expands to 12,000 in the summer when tourists flock to the beaches. Its economy once rested on fishing and agriculture, but now centres on tourism, and out of season it's a gloomy place - most of the houses are shuttered, the souvenir shops closed and the crazy golf course is deserted. During mayoral meetings, Lalonde discusses villagers' concerns about rising property prices and coastal pollution. Residents have never experienced a terrorist attack, and don't even have a crime problem to speak of.

The family's Saint-Briac connection may be something of an embarrassment to Kerry, but it was crucial to Lalonde's 1995 mayoral campaign. He attributes his success to the residual affection that everyone in the village has for his and Kerry's maternal grandmother, Margaret Winthrop Forbes, who retired and died here. "Everyone remembers our grandmother. She gave a lot of jobs to the villagers. She was a fine woman, an eccentric who insisted on having her cream brought from Jersey cows. The village was made up of fishermen and peasants at that time and they liked her. That fondness for our grandmother has translated into fondness for Kerry and for me," he says.

continued...

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I think your convoluted logic makes ZERO sense.

i'll take that as a compliment

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

anyone that fickle should not be allowed to vote

No kidding!

I think it's a good idea (multiple day voting).

[jerseydevil]

All Lalonde's childhood summers were spent here, playing on the beaches with dozens of cousins, who travelled here every summer from America, Scotland, England and Switzerland. When Kerry's father was serving as a diplomat in Europe, John came often, and he and Lalonde - a couple of years younger - became close.

"Johnny was tall and always very fond of sport and organised all the games," he says. They would hunt for octopuses together in the shallows. "But we knew that he would be interested in public affairs. He was always a very serious boy - he would joke around and play and have fun, but he was always very serious beneath, steady and thoughtful."

He has a clear memory of the day Kerry rang to say that he was leaving to fight in Vietnam. "He phoned to say goodbye; we were all very anxious for him," he says. But by this time Lalonde was already busy launching his own career in public life. As leader of the Sorbonne student union, he orchestrated one of the sit-ins that led to the nationwide 1968 demonstrations and for a while he was at the epicen tre of the social revolution in France. After graduating, he took his protest skills to America, where he worked with Friends of the Earth, advising them how to organise shock protests. He was with the vanguard of campaigners against nuclear testing in the Pacific; later he sacrificed his extreme positions to accept the post of environment minister with Mitterrand's government, and then, when he resigned, devoted himself to running a national green party, Génération Ecologie.

His conventional political career was always half-hearted. "I don't like politicians and I don't like politics," he says. "Politics is not about the truth, it's about winning." He felt that he had to join the game in order to push forward his environmental agenda, but he abandoned national campaigning in the mid-90s to focus on a collection of other interests - his concern for women's rights in the Middle East, and his mission to plant more pistachio trees in the dry wilds of Afghanistan. He is as passionate about Afghanistan as he is about the environment and in 1999, after a trip to the country to meet the now dead Northern Alliance leader Ahmed Shah Masood, went so far as to call the White House to warn them about the threat posed by al-Qaida. Perhaps bemused by this panicky call from the mayor of Saint-Briac, the White House did nothing: "Nobody listened to me."

Lalonde's responsibilities as mayor occupy only two days a week; the rest of the time he spends in Paris working as an environmental consultant. But another of his obsessions is France's troubled relationship with America. The Democrats are wrong to be so afraid of him, because he is one of France's few self-confessed Americophiles. He was one of a tiny minority in France to believe that the American campaign in Iraq was wise (although he now thinks with hindsight he might have been "a little betrayed" by the Bush administration), and he is as furious at the French for their hostility to America as he is depressed by the current US distaste for France.

"It's politically correct in France to challenge America, or to say that Americans are just all hamburger-eaters," he says. He hopes his cousin will improve relations if he comes to power. "France should not lead an anti-American crusade, it's stupid. We need America's leadership, but only one that's based on excellence - not on pure might and pure force. We are allies. We are the same civilisation. We need them."

It is 20 years since Kerry last made it back to the beaches where he spent his childhood summers, but he and Lalonde meet intermittently when one or other passes through Washington or Paris. Many of the other clan members frequently gather in Saint-Briac for reunions, and a family newsletter is sent out regularly. Despite the official nervousness at the French mayor's presence at the Democratic conference, Kerry welcomed him with affection.

Lalonde was a close follower of the Democratic movement long before Kerry became its candidate, and advised Al Gore on environmental issues in an informal way during his campaign in 2000. Kerry shares some of his environmental concerns and Lalonde is confident that he will get the US to sign the Kyoto convention (which both cousins helped negotiate). He says he won't go out to help Kerry on environmental policy or lobby him on green issues if he is victorious, commenting: "I think the truth is that a Frenchman cannot influence anything of a foreign country's policy because it doesn't work like that."

But Lalonde is not ready to congratulate Kerry just yet. "Let's wait until he's elected before getting too excited. I also stood for the presidency. There was nothing to be proud about there."

But that may be something that the french are actually good at. Oh wiat - they have bidets - they don't even wipe their own.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'll take that as a compliment

Take it as you will.

[Nurvingiel]

Ahem. It's worth pointing out that just because you don't like the current government or foreign policies, doesn't mean the people of France aren't good at anything. I'm surprised hearing that from you, even in jest, as you face the thing in the form of 'hamburger-eaters' etc.

Is Kerry still green? What I mean by "green" is is he still passionate about the environment. I hope so!

[Mercutio]

Wow. This thread has really been moving along today

Did you know that rain gives the Republicans an advantage? If the weather is icky, less Dems turn out. The Rep. are more dedicated, apparently.

Hmm? Should I pray for rain in IA, PA, OH, etc.?

[inked]

Will those green Kerry-supporting non-hamburger eating Jersey cream milkers/carriers/pourers stop at nothing? In bed with Saddaam and Kerry's relations???????? Why are we not surprised????? Oh, they're French, well that explains it!!!!!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Ahem. It's worth pointing out that just because you don't like the current government or foreign policies, doesn't mean the people of France aren't good at anything. I'm surprised hearing that from you, even in jest, as you face the thing in the form of 'hamburger-eaters' etc.

I was kidding and anyway - no one really thinks twice about complaining about us or telling us how we are. [edit]Maybe it was a bit low and I don't think all french are bad - but I'm not really in the mood to be over generous or nice either - not when Chirac has just been to Asia and bad mouthed us during his whole trip.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is Kerry still green? What I mean by "green" is is he still passionate about the environment. I hope so!

I don't know - he doesn't seem to mention the environment at all. The Kyoto treaty will not be signed - because the president has no control over it. That's why Clinton didn't send it to Congress - instead he left it for Bush to take the fall. Clinton even came out and denounced the Kyoto treaty.

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah, I knew you were kidding. A lot of people don't call you hamburger-eaters and etc. but it's harder to notice something not happening.

The Kyoto treaty isn't popular these days, even those who signed it seem to just have been paying lip service. It's hard to do something environmentally when your neighbour isn't. This applies to two neigbouring houses or two countries who are accross the globe from each other.

*ponders about Kerry*
What does Bush have to say about the environment?