05-23-2003, 09:28 AM | #701 | |
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05-23-2003, 12:42 PM | #702 | |
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05-23-2003, 01:04 PM | #703 | |
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Regarding the woses, I personally never liked them in the story. I love Tolkien's books but the two parts that never "rang true" for me (and I emphasize me) is Tom Bombadil and Ghan-Buri-Ghan. Tom felt way too cartoonish for the more adult-slant that Tolkien gave the LOTR versus The Hobbit. And the G-B-G crew always felt to me like a poor version of the American Indians as portrayed in all the "old west" films of the 50s. They just didn't seem to fit in with the people of Rohan and Gondor. |
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05-23-2003, 01:51 PM | #704 | |
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Ok... I actually agree with you on Tom B. But you are way off on the Woses. They are not a poor version of the American Indians as portrayed in the 50's westerns. Reread it. Tolkien was trying to infuse the story with a variety of people, and also show that some of them were still primitive. As well, it shows an influence of the First Born on those that came after. Wait, I thought we were going to discuss Weak Frodo? |
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05-23-2003, 01:59 PM | #705 |
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That's REALLY disappointing, but not surprising at this point, and I suppose I can see why it's being cut. *reaches hand out hopefully to straws* Maybe he'll at least include them in a cameo on the EE?
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05-23-2003, 05:55 PM | #706 | |
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05-23-2003, 06:30 PM | #707 |
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G-B-G and his people are certainly needed in the book. They led the Rohirrim towards Gondor by a hidden and safe road. The orcs held the main road. In the movie I guess the Rohirrim will just ride over the plains. They come from Helms Deep now, and not Dunharrow. No need for Woses and hidden roads. *shrugs*
Movie is movie. Book is book. I enjoy both.
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05-23-2003, 07:04 PM | #708 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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And about Bombadil, I think it's sad that some people can't see the beauty of innocence in dark times. (no offense, Ruinel ) And you forgot Faramir, Glorfindel...
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05-23-2003, 10:22 PM | #709 | |
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I believe one of the criticisms of Tolkien offered by literary scholars (at least in his day) was that he didn't follow conventions such as streamlining the story; he added these kinds of elements that deviate from the main storyline (such as Bombadil and Ghan-buri-Ghan) and mentioned people and places that are seemingly out of place or irrelevant. But to me that is what gives the story depth and a certain richness not found in similar pieces of literature. I am currently reading Roverandom, and I can really tell that Tolkien loved making things up as he went along, making mention of other elements of the world "around" the story; I don't think he was comfortable NOT doing that in his writing. He obviously felt Woses were important enough to leave in the final draft. Another reason: the more the merrier. I'll take anything and everything I can get in terms of the stuff of ME, I'd have loved for him to add MORE characters and chapters to the book. That being said, I am not personally faulting Jackson for the omission -- as I said in my post, it is understandable to me, especially considering all of the other things that had to be left out, and I see it as a similar situation to Bombadil: the Wild Men aren't necessary for furthering the plot, and they are "drop ins;" they appear in a short episode and are never "seen" again in the course of the book/story. So it certainly makes sense in the interest of time to have the Rohirrim go straight to Gondor. It would also be confusing for the non-reader, because they aren't familiar with the geographical issues involved, which is why we see the Wild Men in the first place. It wouldn't make sense in the "movie world" as it has been presented thus far to include it (although I would argue that it COULD have worked if the movie had been paced differently and had a different feel to the presentation.) BUT despite all of this, it is disappointing all the same. I can SEE the episode in my mind. I can SEE how it would look in a movie. And it looks great. If the time were unlimited, and the movies had been "literal," as we seem to be calling it here, it would have been a wonderful scene. This is why I hope someday a BBC series could be done, to include the things that are impractical/ unworkable on the big screen. So don't worry, BB, I am not "bashing" Jackson; I love the movies. I'm just disappointed that it wasn't possible to include EVERYTHING, Ghan-Buri-Ghan included. |
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05-23-2003, 10:53 PM | #710 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I agree with you, azalea; it really is rather similar to Tom Bombadil, and if he killed Bombadil, I don't see why he wouldn't kill the Woses. But it is a HUGE disappointment to me, as I have grown to be fascinated with the Drughu, and I was REALLY looking forward to seeing how PJ treated them. But now I REALLY don't like how he did.
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05-24-2003, 08:42 AM | #711 |
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I appreciate your thoughtful (as always) response, azalea.
Gwaimir Windgem: Jackson didn't "kill off" Bombadil. In fact, in one of the "making of" shows about the LOTR movies, Phillippa Boyens said that the movie was made in such a way that it isn't saying the hobbits didn't enter the old forest and meet Tom Bombadil, it just isn't showing it. I would suspect that the same thing will be true of Ghan-Buri-Ghan. Which leads me to an interesting thought: New Line has found that the "extended DVD" idea has been a huge commerical success. So after the three movies and three extended DVDs, what's to say that somewhere down the road, New Line and Jackson get the gang together to film EVEN MORE scenes from the books and update the graphics with the latest state-of-the-art CGI to add to a "Special 5th, 10th, or 20th Anniversary LOTR DVD"??? Prime candidates for new scenes would be Tom Bombadil, Ghan-Buri-Ghan, the burrow downs, and the scouring of the shire (although they would have to change the ending because Saruman will already be dead.) Just a thought -- don't be too surprised if it happens though. George and Steven did it with Star Wars and ET, why not Peter for LOTR? |
05-24-2003, 09:19 AM | #712 | |
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05-24-2003, 09:41 AM | #713 | |
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Nooo-oooh! How many more DVD's am I supposed to buy?
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05-24-2003, 09:53 AM | #714 | |
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However, it is NOT LotR. It is PJ of the Rings. A totally different story. |
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05-25-2003, 08:56 AM | #715 | |
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People like to point out that PJ overdid the action-adventure aspects of the story. But at its heart, Tolkien's books are an action-adventure story. What makes it truly special is that the story was so much more than that. It transcended the traditional 'fairy tale' or adventure story of the time to create something so unique it fathered a whole new genre. The same can be said for PJ's movies. To me, the aspects of Jackson's work that elevates it far above the typical action-adventure flicks we get is that PJ was true to Tolkien's themes of loyalty, friendship, self-sacrifice, honor, dignity, hope in the face of hopelessness, and true bravery. Critics can talk all they want about Arwen's ride, the loss of Tom Bombadil, or Frodo on Weathertop, it's those timeless themes of Tolkien's that stay in our heads and move us long after the credits roll. Most of us recall feeling those same emotions the first time we read the books. There can be no greater tribute to an author's vision. |
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05-25-2003, 08:44 PM | #716 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) Just action. 3) Okaaaaaaaay...whatever. 4) Hmm...seems to me you mean at it's face value, it was. If it transcends it, and in fact is much more than an adventure story, then it is not one at it's heart 5) Um...excuse me? Fantasy movies were "fathered" by Tolkien's books. and how in the nine Hells of Faerun can you say that it fathered a new genre, if they aren't even all out yet? 6) Yah. Whatever. 7) Correction. The hollow shadow of those timeless themes. And that's because there isn't anything else. 8) Again: Who made you the Official REAL Tolkien Fan, whom we should all try to be just like?
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05-25-2003, 10:59 PM | #717 |
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Apropos of nothing, I have a soft spot in my heart for Ghan-buri-Ghan and his people, after reading the short story about them in one of the other (forget which one) histories of ME. Maybe it's already been mentioned -- its a great story about one of their carved stones set up to protect a house, and how it actually takes care of an attacker.
Too bad we can't have all the movie blow by blow -- but we have that in HP and it's none too thrilling. |
05-25-2003, 11:13 PM | #718 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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That was Unfinished Tales, I believe.
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05-26-2003, 07:48 AM | #719 | ||
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At its heart, Tolkien's books are an action-adventure story. What makes it truly special is that the story was so much more than that. It transcended the traditional 'fairy tale' or adventure story of the time to create something so unique it fathered a whole new genre.
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05-26-2003, 09:02 AM | #720 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) I was referring to Quote:
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