11-15-2005, 02:37 PM | #701 |
Quasi Evil
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Marriage for "love" (tradition?) is a very recent phenomenon actually. Weve finally gotten to the point where we can afford to consider such a thing as a real possibility. Marriage for the large part of history has instead been about practicality and/or social ties. So if we really want to follow "tradition" in regards to marriage we need to end this whole marry for love thing right away before it catches on...
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11-15-2005, 04:09 PM | #702 |
Elf Lord
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Actually, IR, this is a western cultural imposition upon the history or mankind - marriage for love, that is - and isn't really practiced much elsewhere in location or time. From a sociological perspective it is a phenomenon traceable to the Middle Ages and is quite well attested in the literature as precisely a new and threatening phenomenon (see THE ALLEGORY OF LOVE by CS Lewis for the literary development). The major mode of familial formation is mate selection by one's parents for all the important reasons - money, politics, and continuation of the family.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-15-2005, 04:55 PM | #703 | |
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It's just that some religions and cultures don't think homosexuality and same-sex marriages are a good thing. However from a historical point of view, before the world was all westernized, many cultures have had no problems with the idea of two people of the same sex living together. So who are we Westerneers to say the norm should be man-woman marriages only?
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11-15-2005, 05:00 PM | #704 | |
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we only want it defined for our society-our country or are you advocating the Arab practice take over the world? or some other such idea
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11-15-2005, 05:06 PM | #705 | |
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can we get past certain traditions as we have with others in the past to the benefit of our society? (feudal serfdom, slavery, racism, women's rights, etc.)
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11-15-2005, 05:19 PM | #706 | |
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Just saying other cultures have or have had room for same-sex marriages and I think we Westerners could make some room for it too.
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11-15-2005, 06:01 PM | #707 | |
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11-15-2005, 06:17 PM | #708 | ||||
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I agree with you Brownie; perpetuating a tradition solely because it is a tradition serves no purpose. The tradition of men and women who love each other (those rebels ) marrying has many positive values, so of course we won't get rid of it. Two men or two women who love each other is also a very positive thing, and the climate is right in many societies to recognize this. In Canadian society, for example, it was found that not allowing gay marriage is against the Charter, because this would entail descrimination based on sexuality. But what if a legally married Canadian gay couple went to another country. Would they still recognize their marriage? Quote:
What is the difference between a civil union and a marriage anyway?
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11-15-2005, 09:49 PM | #709 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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oh goodie, N and BJ agree, how unique.
The rest of society will just have to cave in to deconstructionalists and those who would do away with all the foundations concerning values. Too bad I don't know all the words to "koom-by-ya"....I am familiar with "on the paths to destruction."
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11-15-2005, 10:03 PM | #710 |
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Perhaps then it would be wise to add to your one liner and stock pop culture quote list a few lines of lyrics penned by the Bard Sir Robert Zimmerman my dear spock
Come gather 'round people
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-15-2005, 10:42 PM | #711 | |
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Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! REST IN PEACE GRANDMA, GREAT AUNT, GREAT UNCLE .....they're gunna fly with the angels now so say goodbye..but i can't. You don't really realize the importance of someone until they are gone |
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11-15-2005, 10:48 PM | #712 | |
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and i know this is WAY off topic but whats this find a cure for cancer? i would like to join since my great uncle died of it recently and now you will understand my signiture
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Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! REST IN PEACE GRANDMA, GREAT AUNT, GREAT UNCLE .....they're gunna fly with the angels now so say goodbye..but i can't. You don't really realize the importance of someone until they are gone Last edited by Tamuril Sirfalas : 11-15-2005 at 10:50 PM. |
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11-16-2005, 04:40 PM | #713 |
Elf Lord
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Perchance this will make IR happy .. or not!
Forget monogamy and swinging. We're seriously polyamorous A new frankness about simultaneous relationships is sweeping the US, reports Paul Harris in New York Sunday November 13, 2005 The Observer Sometimes Nan Wise's in-laws pop round on Sunday afternoons. They settle down with Nan, a psychotherapist, her husband John, a lawyer, and their two children to watch American football on TV. So far, so all-American: a slice of suburban life on the outskirts of New York. But sometimes John's long-term girlfriend drops by, as does Nan's boyfriend. The Wises are not divorced. In fact, Nan says her marriage to John is as strong as ever. 'We are very normal, well-adjusted people,' she said. Well, sort of normal. Welcome to the world of the polyamorous, where the family is bigger than you might expect. Polyamorists do not limit themselves to one relationship but maintain numerous relationships, straight or gay. A key element is that they are all serious emotional commitments, not just casual sex. And polyamorists are coming out of the closet across America. Several groups have sprung up. In New York, Polyamorous NYC holds monthly meetings, has an email list of about 800 and holds a Poly Pride day each year in Central Park. A documentary, Three of Hearts: A Postmodern Family, has opened at cinemas in the city, chronicling a 13-year relationship between three people living together in a relationship that produced two children. Many polyamorous people, who call themselves 'polys', liken their emergence to the struggle by gays and lesbians for equal rights, 'coming out' as poly in a society prejudiced against their lifestyle. 'Most people in the poly community are very closeted. The community is where gays and lesbians were in the Sixties,' said Justen Bennett-MacCubbin, the founder of Polyamorous NYC. Bennett-MacCubbin, who is in two serious gay relationships, says he has had to come out of the closet twice: first as a homosexual at 16 and three years later as polyamorous too. 'I realised I enjoyed being with two people in two relationships. Monogamy has no interest for me at all,' he said. Polys face deep prejudice, he says. The most common reaction from non-polys is that polys have chosen their lifestyle to have lots of sex with different people. Nothing could be further from the truth, he says.'It is extremely important that people realise it is not just about sexual encounters. What distinguishes the poly community from swingers is that we want to make multiple emotional bonds. Most people in the poly community won't have casual sex,' he said. It does result in complicated sexual and emotional patterns. Some polys are in 'triangles', where each person in a threesome has a relationship with the other. Or they can be in a 'vee', where one is involved with two others who are not involved with each other. Or polys can be in 'primary relationships', such as with a spouse or partner, and have one or more 'secondary' relationships. Through it all the sexes can be mixed, as polys can be straight, gay or bisexual. But being a poly can be tough. Brigitte Philippides, an artist in Greenwich Village, has a primary relationship with a boyfriend, a serious relationship with a secondary girlfriend and several secondary relationships with other men. To bored husbands or wives who might think being a poly means uncomplicated, carefree sex with multiple partners, Philippides has a stern warning. 'If you can't manage one relationship healthily, you are not going to be able to manage two. For polys, relationships are like a consuming hobby: they take up a tremendous amount of time,' she said. Polys say that for many people, monogamy is unnatural. They point to spiralling divorce rates and widespread infidelity among monogamous couples. Polys, they say, are honest about the human condition. It is monogamists, they say, who live in a fantasy land. 'People divorce often not because of the cheating, but because of the issue of trust being broken. For polys, everything is open and it's all about honesty. All my relationships are working,' Philippides said. Jealousy is the key emotional issue to be overcome. 'We are taught that jealousy is hardwired into us and people can then justify their jealous rages at their partner's need for others. Polys move beyond that,' said Wise. Philippides was even more frank. 'We talk about jealousy openly. It is not a taboo word for us,' she said. In fact, polys have a term, called 'compersion'. This is the opposite of jealousy and involves taking pleasure from the success of your partner's other relationships. A hefty dose of compersion helps make polyamory work. That and a deft hand at scheduling so that no partner in a poly set-up feels unfairly treated. 'We want a change in perception of what's possible. By and large people are not naturally monogamous, and we should be able to talk about it without prejudice,' said Bennett-MacCubbin. Certainly some polys have changed the perceptions of those nearest and dearest to them. Wise tells of her in-laws' shocked reaction when she and her husband came out as polys 11 years ago. There were concerns for their marriage and their children. Now those concerns are gone. 'They see that our kids have grown up great and that our marriage is great, and that's all they really cared about in the end,' she said. And the secret of success? 'Communicate, communicate, communicate,' Wise enthused. 'It is just honesty and working on being a better person. When we first started we took very slow and deliberate steps towards being poly. And you know what? The world did not implode.' Being polyamorous not only means adapting to a new way of life; it also involves adapting to a new vocabulary: Poly A person with multiple serious relationship partners at the same time.They can be straight, gay or bisexual. Vee A polyamorous relationship where one person,'the hinge', maintains a relationship with two others who are not involved with each other. The language of multiple love Triangle A relationship between three people where each is involved with the others. Compersion The feeling of getting pleasure from a partner's other relationships. Polys argue that this is the opposite of jealousy. Primary Where a poly has one central relationship, perhaps with a spouse, while maintaining links to other people who are 'secondary' relationships. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...641431,00.html +++++++++++++++++ So, committment is everything! You can settle for number 1 (primary, main sqeeze, chief chump) or you can take a lesser position. Whose gonna provide for the kids? And will DNA paternity testing be as common as blodd typing? ------------------ This is a polythread for polyamorous regardless of sexual "orientation", right?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-16-2005, 04:43 PM | #714 | |
Elf Lord
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-16-2005, 04:53 PM | #715 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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let people make their own choices, and keep the law out of it unless it is absolutely necessary to include it as part of the picture
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11-16-2005, 05:12 PM | #716 | |
Quasi Evil
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Sounds almost ideal. But I bet its tougher to make work well. Especially in this restrictive homophobic society. I know some people who are in those kinds of relationships but they are kind of insulated new ager types who have their own issues. Ive certainly been in relationships where that kind of situation would have solved all my problems... but alas all the girls ive been with are not the type to share a mate... (well at least permanently... )
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11-16-2005, 05:38 PM | #717 |
Elf Lord
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IR, we do try to make you happy so very infrequently that it warms the cockles of our hearts to see you positively beaming. That is until the paternity dues come in, of course. But then one could avoid those by restricting to same-gender relationships which are notoriously non-reproductive of humans.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-16-2005, 06:10 PM | #718 | |
Elven Warrior
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Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer: Rimmo nin Bruinen dan in Ulaer! REST IN PEACE GRANDMA, GREAT AUNT, GREAT UNCLE .....they're gunna fly with the angels now so say goodbye..but i can't. You don't really realize the importance of someone until they are gone |
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11-16-2005, 11:03 PM | #719 | |
Elven Warrior
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11-16-2005, 11:07 PM | #720 | |
Elven Warrior
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One of the very first pieces of written records known in the history of humanity (Gilgamesh) has a same-sex relationship in it. Anyway all that is completely irrelevent, because the point is not to keep on doing what has been for centuries, right or wrong as that might be! The point is to do what is right, what is morally right! And what is morally right is to give the same legal protections and the same legal recognitions to everybody regardless of the gender of the partner that they choose to marry Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 11-17-2005 at 09:06 AM. |
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